Monarchy - calling Americans

[speedymama]

I watched this last night. Over 4 or 5 episodes David Starkey is recounting the rise of the British Empire, the evolution of Parliament and hence democracy, all in parallel with the history of the Monarchy.

The latter part of last nights episode focused on the reason for the War of Independence, and how the American consitution was drawn up based on the system of government derived from concepts proposed by the Whig party (Liberals in modern times).

Thomas Jefferson wrote the constitution and stated that every man is born free and equal. However, at the time he had black slaves working on his plantation. So how do Americans now reconcile these facts, particularly as blacks were not equal to whites or free?

I'm not American, but could it be because they believed, or said I don't think anyone could actualy believe this, that black people were'nt human; which is the reason that they didnt want to teach slaves christianity at the beginning?So in that case they woudln't say they were men?

Um, in those days I don't think anyone thought the races were equal. They thought Black people (and essentially all non-white people) were inferior.

oh I wasn't saying only Americans thought that, I just said I'm not American because it said calling all American..sorry

Fair enough.

Oh, it's worth noting that women didn't have votes then, either, too. Or men who didn't own property.

But the constitution states that every man is born free and equal. If they did not consider black people as part of mankind, why did slave masters have black concubines and not use sheep instead?

Xposted NQC, good point. It makes a mockery of the statement then, doesn't it|?

I don't think men were open about the fact they were sleeping with their slaves. It counted as miscegenation, which was certainly taboo if not actually illegal.

Nowadays, most Americans are either immigrants themselves or decended from immigrants who weren't there during Jefferson's time, so they don't really give much thought as to what some guy was thinking way back when.

I'll bet a fair amount don't even know who Thomas Jefferson was.

Nowadays, most Americans are either immigrants themselves or decended from immigrants who weren't there during Jefferson's time, so they don't really give much thought as to what some guy was thinking way back when.

I'll bet a fair amount don't even know who Thomas Jefferson was.

Well, it was a good intent, even if it wasn't one that anyone could live up to in those days.

Unfortunately, Americans seem to still believe that every American starts out equal, when they manifestly don't (racism, class, different opportunities). This makes it harder for them to face up to, and reduce, inequalities, imo.

My dad, for example, didn't learn about Thomas Jefferson till he was in high school.

He didn't speak a word of English until he was in year 1, anyhow - no nursery or reception in those days, you just went into primary school when you were 6.

Expat, "I'll bet a fair amount don't even know who Thomas Jefferson was".

Sadly I think you may be right, just like the numbers in this country who are ignorant of history preceding WW2!

Expat, in your opinion, does the constitution really mean anything now and does it have any bearing on US citizens lives now?

Yeah, plenty of folks have no idea who is president in the US or who is PM in the UK.

Have just finished reading 'Star of the Sea', a book set in the times of the Irish famine. It describes in part how the Irish felt about England oppressing them, and points out that even in England, only property-owning men had the right to vote.

This was true until quite recently .

Of course it has, speedy! Even if people are ignorant of it.

I mean, free speech, right to bear arms, etc.

Absolutely has a bearing on how everyday life is conducted in America.

It is a written constitution, too, as opposed to the UK.

So is it taught in schools as part of history lessons or separately?

Thanks for answering btw - I like to be informed.

I don't know how it's handled now. It's been a long time since I was in school and the laws over course cirriculum and content vary by state.

In high school, a year of American history was compulsory for us, so that's where I learned about it.

I learned about it at home long before that, but mostly b/c my father is first-generation American and my mother is first-generation on one side - her mother was French - and only second generation on the other - and they are more patriotic than some.

I lived in America for about 13 years; we moved there when I was 10. 2 years of American history was compulsory in primary school & 2 years of American history was also compulsory in high school (not that any of it had changed when I learnt it again the 2nd time around ) Anyway, I think most children learn about every man being born free & equal, but slavery was a part of history that was almost glossed over. I think it was mentioned, but not in any detail, so none of us even thought about the hypocrisy of that part of the constitution at the time. Blacks were not considered to be human at the time so we would have been excluded from the constitution anyway. Keep in mind that blacks were property, like cattle, so would have no more rights under the constitution than a cow or horse.

Women were also chattel in some states.

The other issue you have is that it is federal system, w/states as well as a federal government.

Also, at the time the Constitution was written, there were only about 13 states at all.

Texas, where I'm from, for example, was once part of Mexico rather than a British colony. It was also a Spanish colony.

Indentured servitude also existed in the States.

Indeed, many a Scot who was evicted in the Highland Clearances emigrated to the US as indentured servant.

Any American that doesn't know who Thomas Jefferson is, is a complete moron. Unfortunately, since I'm American I know that there are quite a few of them.
As far as the constitution goes it is not a perfect document, that was written by very imperfect people. However it has stood the test of time. It's concrete enough to lay out our rights, but vague enough to allow changes/improvements to those rights as the country and society evolves.

Talking about equality. As much as Americans are all for equality it doesn't exist. There is a reason why all of our presidents have been old white men. But equality isn't gained overnight. Women and people of color have a lot of catching up to do.

I've recently purchased two documentary series on DVD, "The American Civil War" and "How the West was Won". I've seen the American Civil war before on TV and it was superb. I have not seen the other one but reviews say it is excellent. I have also purchased a book detailing all the US Presidents up to Bill Clinton. So my challenge for 2007 is to appraise myself of US history.

I sincerely hope that How the West was Won addresses the history of the Native Americans which I assume is also overlooked in history lessons.

Thomas Jefferson didn't just own slaves, he fathered them. Genetic tests have proved he had children with one of his slaves. Sadly if you were born to a slave you were a slave so I assume his children were also slaves.

Don't forget the southern states had apartheid until the 60s.

There's a special on tonight, too, about some of the many women JFK cheated on his wife with.

Thomas Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence in 1776 while America was still a colony of Britain. That is where he wrote All men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. He was in France during the time the US Constitution was being written and is not the author.
The Constitution does not mention ANY Thing about men being equal. However, it does mention slavery. It indicates that a black man (slave) was to be counted as 2/3rds of a man for purposes of representation in the US Congress. That way, southern states with high black populations and low white populations would keep up its more populous neighbor to the North.

Thomas Jefferson was a very conflicted man who did not know if blacks were human and sort of thought that Indians might be human. His Letters from the State of Virginia are an interesting read, but push him right off the pedestal of greatness that his Declaration of Independence placed him. He owned slaves and he fucked (sometime literally) them and he didn't free them like another great slave holding American president, Washington.

A lot of those ideas in the Declaration of Independence are from Liberal English thinkers like Thomas Paine. He used language that would have been known to literate and powerful Englishmen. America was an experiment. Jefferson and the founding fathers set up the ideals to be strived for to create a new nation of people and generation by generation Americans have struggle to shape the nation closer to the ideals expressed by those 18th century bewigged white slaveholding Englishmen (which is how they thought of themselves).

Yes, I am an American. African American, in fact, but I can't tell you what ever American knows about Jefferson. But, Ken Burns did do a series on Thomas Jefferson, so a few more might be educated as to what TJ did in our history. And I can't wait to see Burn's new series this fall on World War II. Only I have no idea how to get it in Herts!!!