IS MY FIL RACIST OR SHOULD I GET A SENSE OF HUMOUR?

[whatsthestoryinbalamorytoday]

Since me and my DH 1st got together, my FIL used to call me a Paki. When he stopped that after we had a strong word with him, he began on my religion-making comments about how "my lot blow themselves up". He'd also try to imitate our call to prayer and just generally take the piss. I'm a Pakistani Muslim and my DH is White.
Once we were in Nandos and there were 2 girls wearing headscarves sitting near us. He started commenting on how that should be banned like in France and they shouldn't be allowed to wear stuff like that in public. We were in an asian restaurant and a man with his young children was eating with his hands. My FIL started saying loudly (he's not capable of saying anything quietly), that the man was a pig and it was disgusting that he eat with his hands. I explained that I do, and my family do aswell-he insisted that's what pigs do and that it was uncivilised!!! Me and my DH had a go at him and thought that was the end of it.
In the past, whenever he'd said anything to me I would try to ignore it and get upset once he'd gone. My DH assured me that his father did it because he genuinely thought he was being funny. He said that if he says anything to me, retaliate by taking the piss about the fact he's mediterrean-which I did once or twice, although I hated stooping to his level and he still never stopped-it just used to escalate.
Today he came round and we were all winding each other up and there was a bit of harmless banter. Then he started on the fact that "my lot" in Pakistan wear the Burkah which covers all the face but the eyes. He started gesturing with his hands and pretending he was wearing one. I told him he was a racist and he realised I was being serious. He then stormed off-told my DH never to call him again and said if you can't take insults back, don't give them. I told him that I'd not said anything personal against him and definately not anything racist. He said he'd never come back to our house and I said (as I showed him the door and slammed it after him) that people who make racist or ignorant comments aren't welcome!!!

My DH still insists that his dad just has a poor sense of humour but supports me enough to say that without an apology to us, he'll not see our dd as he won't allow racist comments being said around us. Have I over-reacted? The guy is actually quite nice sometimes but seems to (just when things are going well) end up saying something racist, or comment on the fact that I look pregnant again (which he knows pisses me off). I spoke to my MIL about it before and she said she'd have a word with him-not sure if she did.

What would you have done? Have I overreacted? Should I be feeling guilty about this, because I do

Hiya; - and yes, you should.

In my parents case, it was mainly g'dad who was the outright racist, and g'ma went along with it, making excuses and never telling him off or even pointing out that it would end up damaging her family - which it eventually did. So in a way, although she did not say racist things, she wasn't willing to tell her husband to change his ways (or even shut up) in order to keep her son and toddler granddaughter close to her.

Distance is good; it's a great healer. Don't let too much time go by, but enough for the feelings to heal over a bit. If you FIL is really an unreconstructed Alf Garnett, he will never change - but he can at least stay silent; his remarks are NOT humour, and may drive all of you away. Point this out calmly and firmly to your FIL, and (privately) gently to your MIL (make sure she understands it's not an angry threat, it's simply to avoid contact with stuff that's unpleasant, unacceptable and bad for your dd). Bend over backwards to avoid antagonising her.

Then you and your dh will have behaved in an adult, sensible manner and provided them with a good example. Hopefully your MIL will hop on board, and your dd can at least have good contact with her. If not.....

Racism is like a cancerous, slow poison. I reject racist outsiders, so why should I accept it from family members (who after all, can hurt you the most). Sorry about this long post - brings back memories, is all!

The problem is that we've arranged that they come and see dd once a month together (before all this they never even used to come once a month!!!). My husband doesn't want to see them and nor do I!!!

I've already told my dh that I never want to sit in the same room as his dad again and he says he can't force me to and respects my wishes. Problem is, he doesn't want to see them either!!!

Feel bad making him deal with his parents by himself-don't know what to do. If they try to talk to me I'm afraid I'm not going to hold back on what I really think of them anymore. I have no respect for them left at all!!!

Should I be present? With me being there the atmosphere will be awful!!!

You and dh need to do what you think is best but I think unless yr inlaws see the consequences of his behaviour (her ineffectualness) there is no incentive for change. I'm not suggesting that you should use dd as a weapon but you could refuse that they see her until such time as yr fil makes a sincere apology (on the basis that you don't want her influenced by his racist attitude).

If you really both don't want to see them, then don't! I could understand your dilemma if your dh wanted to stay in touch, but you say that he doesn't. If neither of you get anything out of seeing them, then surely giving them a wide berth is the best option?

I think that the boundary setting starts now. I know that you've arranged for them to see your DD once a month, but if your FIL hasn't apologised and isn't prepared to keep his "humour" to himself, then personally I would cancel the visit until such time as he sorts himself out.

I really liked cooper...'s posts. Spot on!

this man sounds oafish and ignorant in the extreme. He is undoubtedly racist but - he clearly doesn't realise that he is. which is kind of an odd thing to say about someone.iyswim but I think he just doesn't understand what racism is. I have no idea if such a thing exists but is there any chance of finding a book that might help him see what a pig he is being? something that explains (possibly not using very long words) what racism is. Something that won;t make him react against it? maybe there's even a good novel out there about racism that could help? You have not over-reacted btw, you sound pretty saintly tbh.

he has offered a sincere apology-whether this is because he was forced to by MIL or off his own back I have no idea. At the time (it was 2 days after the incident) we were still furious and wouldn't answer the phone to him so that he could make the apology and we asked them to stop calling.

MIL has, since then, tried to build bridges. He hasn't-whether because he's too stupid to or because we told them to stop contacting us I don't know.

We feel our dd has a right to know who her grandparents are-even if they aren't very nice, at least she'll have the opportunity to make her own mind up in the future.

Thanks MadamedeMars!

(Grudgingly) I do think that the fact that he has apologised is something, I suppose. Thewoman..hat's idea is a good one, but who's to say he would read (or understand) what he was given? Still, do it anyway. And point out to old grandpaw that wisecracks about balamory's cultural background are really crass because his granddaughter inherits some of this background, as well as some of HIS own background, so really he is insulting his granddaughter AND thereby insulting his great old stupid self.

Maybe that would be too complicated to follow!!!

Sorry, meant to say this but forgot.

How about seeing them once a month for short visits in 'safe', 'neutral' places where bad behaviour will be curtailed (walks in park, plus lunch in cafe, walks by river plus lunch in cafe..etc!) as opposed to having them in your house for the whole day. FIL won't be as able to blurt out stupidness and you can get rid of them easily by dictating when you need to go home. Bearable for once a month, maybe?

Good goD! you are describing the regular behaviour of my MIL and SIL, sadly, the one person who kept the problem undercontrol was my FIL, and he passed away a few years ago.

I'm so hurt from the humilliation they have put me through (and I can't forgive DH for allowing them to behave like that towards me for so many years) that I loose sleep at the thought of having contact with them. I do not even answer the phone at nights fearing it culd be them .

I always thought that I should respect/protect the sister-brother/mother-son relationship they have with DH but that has only ruined our marriage.

Big problem is that DH always justified the behaviour saying it was a cultural problem, but he can appreciate now that her mum and sister's beahviour is outrageous even in their own culture. You are not the one to pay for that.

My MIL is so racist that when I called her words racist (after she said a friend of mine could not expect niceties having that couloured skin) she told me that was not racism but the truth

(Not wanting to hijack the thread but someway I suspect that your ILS and my ILs cultural background is exactly the same (hence the ranting), hope you have better luck than I did)

Grrr!

Don't worry Chandra; we and our fabulous kids will prevail, despite them all. Living well is the best revenge!

Actually, I don't know that the core of FIL's behaviour as described is racism.
It sounds like bullying which happens to be racist in expression.
Balamory cites examples of him saying offensive things to women, both stangers and her.
No example of him going up to a large "Moslem-looking" bloke and telling jokes about his mother.

Must confess that when I hear English people talking about such things, my voice drifts quickly into posh, and I talk of how the English routinely come bottom of all education league tables, and offer "jokes" such as most English people thinking that Machiavelli is a type of pasta, and The Prince is an American rock star.
According to the BBC a scary % of English kids think Gandalf defeated the Spanish Armada.
I phrase them as jokes of course, in the tone of the racist who typically is structurally ignorant even by the rather pathetic standards of the English.
That's a bit confrontational of course, but given my build and the slightly scary look in my eyes, never being called out on it.

Livin well away of them, you mean?

Dominiconnor, can you have a go at my highly ignorant and overly opinionated MIL? please????

I used to do the same you describe but, if they make jokes about my country and I got annoyed they said it was a cultural misunderstanding, if I joked about the same they went all into a right rant and said I was insulting them! Don't know why they couldn't see that there are certain jokes that are outrageous to person hearing them.

still haven't solved the problem I have-shall i be present at the meetings or not?

By cooperflykiller on Saturday, 8 April, 2006 12:13:18 PM

Sorry, meant to say this but forgot.

How about seeing them once a month for short visits in 'safe', 'neutral' places where bad behaviour will be curtailed (walks in park, plus lunch in cafe, walks by river plus lunch in cafe..etc!) as opposed to having them in your house for the whole day. FIL won't be as able to blurt out stupidness and you can get rid of them easily by dictating when you need to go home. Bearable for once a month, maybe?

I agree with cooperflykiller. Neutral space, limited time. Hope it works out for you. If there is no change despite the apology then at least you have met them half way and there is no need to do more!

oops... so yes! Be present but if it's too much for you you could always go buy and icecream for an hour or so!

DominiConnor i think the only reason why he'd never say anything to a big bloke is simply because he's gutless-not cos he's not racist.

All the comments he's ever made have been either degrogatory towards either my race, religion or culture.

MadameDeMars
problem is that he says things in public aswell-commented on how a guy was uncivilised and a pig because he was eating with his hands-which in the asian culture is totally acceptable....worse thing was we were in an asian restaurant!!!!!!!!

You should see them and be present, Mars suggestions are very good.

At some point DH suggested visiting them with DS and leaving me at home. I felt as if I was going to be the excluded party because they couldn't behave themselves. Besides, I don't trust MIL to stop her racist remarks just because I'm not there and I don't want DS to grow up believing there's something wrong about my (and his) culture.

I guess the clue is to stick up as a family. Otherwise they wouldn't see a reason to change.

Well you need to accept his apology and meet on neutral ground. If his apology is genuine then things should be okay, despite the damage that he has done. If he hasn't even tried to change or choke his words back, then you don't need to see him again.

I think you've been incredibly gracious over the whole thing. I married a man with racist parents. The best revenge was his brother also marrying a black girl. However, they were never going to change with regards to me and I have never had an apology. Consequently I cut all ties with them. Never ever see them, and they never see my kids.

MIL has sid things like that to my parents... she once said we use so much chilli in our dishes because we were trying to hide the meat was going putrid, even when my mother had cooked the meal and she was present!

Like Chandra I agree with the whole go and stick together as a family thing. I could never trust them to even speak civily with my kids there. They didn't deserve the chance to divide my family. Besides it would have allowed them to continue and because DH is their son, he wouldn't have objected quite as strongly or quickly. Indeed he often said... "that's just the way they are". Led to no end of problems. But that's a whole other story.

whatsthestory - I had a similar situation with my step-father (I never ever called him that, I called him "my mother's 2nd husband"), a vile, racist, quite blatant neo-Nazi. He loves Hitler and never ever made any attempt to hide this fact saying how Hitler should have killed the lot of them" [Jews of course]. He hates Muslims as well and often uses the word "Paki" whenever he sees anyone with darker skin

It is a very complicated story why my mother married him about 20 years ago. My own dear beloved natural father died very young about 10 years ago. He was the most intelligent, liberal father I have ever known, and I miss him every day of my life. He taught me tolerance of other cultures and religions from the day I was born and I am eternally grateful to him.

Thankfully my mother has only recently started divorce proceedings, she is very ill and he is incapable of looking after her. She has tried to divorce him on 2 occassions before, but he always managed to trick her into going back.

NO, I don't think you have overreacted. I refused to see my t**er step-father for the past 3 years, he has never seen my DS. I have told my mother that I will erase all memory of him and will not mention him to DS until he is much much older. All he will ever hear are beautiful stories about his REAL grandfather.

I think you need to speak to your DH (who sounds lovely by the way !) and say that for your sake and the sake of your children your FIL will have to change his behaviour. I find that with all racists, their attitude is so inbred and ingrained, that it is actually impossible to get them to give up their habits, but can he not just learn to SHUT UP in front of you and his granchildren ? That is the least he can do. Let him be racist at all other times, but at least in front of you he should learn to keep his gob shut !

I know excatly how you feel and hope that you will be able to resolve it somehow

Yup;

Balamory, it is important to be there together as a family or not at all. Your FIL is both a bully (the you look pregnant comments) and a racist(the eating like a pig comments). Meet them for short lunches and excursions, and if he cannot contain himself in the limited time you see them, then you are free to protect your daughter and yourself as necessary.

My dad refused to see his racist parents without my mum unless they accepted her, (which they chose not to do - they were happy to see him and me). So that was that. Uggh!!

Years later, as an adult I foolishly took my two boys to a family gathering organised by my dads sister (a lovely, blameless woman who grew up without her older brother being there). Would you believe it, but scuzzy grandfather commented on how funny it was that aunt had produced their only grandchildren. WTF!!!!!!!! me, their first grandchild and their two great grandchildren were right in front!!!!! I couldn't believe my ears, and finally understood what my parents had to go through.

DH was very upset, but I figured it served me right, and I am lucky that my parents protected me from them.