Morbid Question: What happens to kids if parents die?

[NotQuiteCockney]

This is an entirely idle question, but I was wondering: what happens if parents die without a will? Do kids automatically go into care? Do they automatically go to the nearest relative, or what? Do the kids get the parents' money? Does it go into trust?

I assume that if you have a will, then kids and money are distributed according to the will, but does the state check that whomever you say will get the kids, is actually able to cope?

carolinamoon, I don't the exact ins and outs but I understand that if a couple are not married, the father does not automatically have the same rights regarding his children compared to a father married to his children's mother. I read an article on this a while back and there was an instance of a father not being able to sign a medical consent form for a child (but don't know how the hospital would have known he was not married?). i think you can get a legal document drawn up to give the father the same rights but it is not automatic.

Pabla, that's parental responsibility. Since December 2003, an unmarried father named on the child's birth certificate automatically has parental responsibility. Otherwise he would need a court order to get it (whether by agreement with the mother or otherwise).

There are various things you can't do without parental responsibility, including taking the child out of the country, changing his or her name and (as you say) consenting to medical treatment on the child's behalf.

Other people can be granted PR too in certain circumstances - e.g. if a child was being brought up by grandparents, the grandparents could apply for PR.

IIRC, guardianships are not legally binding, but the family courts would be hard pushed to over rule wishes laid down in a will/letter of wishes.

Milge, do you know what the family courts do if you haven't identified a potential guardian? DP and I (and also my sister and BIL) are relying on our families to just sort it out if the worst happened because it's hard to know who would be in the best position at some unspecified point in the future.

There's no reason to think anyone will be unreasonable about it.

Will the court just accept whoever steps forward (assuming they have the space and cash to look after the child)?

Not being a lawyer, wouldn't like to answer properly, but i will speculate they would appoint whoever (a) agreed and (b) the courts deemed financially and physically able to do it. I can't imagine them placing kids with infirm grandparents on the minimum state pension, for example.
You need to take proper advice not just rely on guesswork from here.

oh but I'm too mean Milge!

It is also a bit difficult as the obvious candidates are my sister and BIL as their ds is only slightly older than our ds, but DP would prefer his family as he thinks BIL's family is a bit, I dunno, stuck up or something. Except no one in DP's family has small children atm so not v practical.

If we had someone we could clearly agree on, I would definitely do a letter of wishes. The wills are done anyway. I don't doubt that if we died tomorrow my sister would take ds and wouldn't have any problems getting the legal side of it sorted too.

When we had dd we both made a will that named her guardians and effectivly left our money in trust to them to be used for her benefit. It is BIL and SIL, we discussed this with them first and they were happy to take on the responsibility. We have since ammended out will to 'give' them ds as well.

Have you talked to your sister about this? Its pretty grim to have to mention, but very necessary. If she has any concerns, better to raise them now with you, rather than be backed into a corner "afterwards"

Why don't you do a letter of wishes and name either your sister or X from your dp's family, so at least it narrows down the field and the family courts can see which way you were thinking? Its not formally binding anyway.

I have done Milge, don't worry! - she was fine about it. It's a bit awkward given DP's problem with BIL and his clan (which I don't think he is actually that seriously worried about though iyswim) - I couldn't just say "please look after ds", so we kind of vaguely discussed it in the vague way that things get discussed in my family .

She thought either me and DP or her SIL would look after her ds if anything happened to her and BIL so it is kind of the same from their point of view I think.

Just seen your last post Milge. You are right, we should do something like that - we can update it as family circumstances change anyway. Thanks!

just to say don't think "this might never happen". it happened to me. After my brother and his wife both died my dh and i took parental responsibility for our neice( 5 years ago)
make a will, talk to your family, make your wishes known.
This would have saved a 4 year legal battle for us. Deeply unpleasant and hostile. Grief does wierd things to people.Get it down on paper.

Hi Sorrel,
i thought of you immediately i saw this thread.
We have made verbal agreements with my aunt, that in the event of any thing happening to her and her dh or me and my dh that we each would take the children.
They have 2, we have 1.
we have discussed this in detail.
She has a very very similar parenting attitude to me and i know that she and er dh would take ds with no second thought at all. He would be loved and happy, vice versa.
We do however, as you advise Sorrel need to get this down on paper.
I agree 100% with your comments about what grief can do to people.

Both our DDs will go to my sister if the worst happened, and she would be free to have our house to live in, as they would not inherit until they are 18. And we have adequate life cover that she would be able to provide for them.
Interestingly, she had to do her will recently as she moved, and has named DD1 as sole recipient should sister die. She is single, so felt that DD1 would be best.

Sorrel, it's the fact that I'd prefer my relatives to bring up ds and dp would prefer his relatives - we haven't been able to agree and it's only the fact that neither of us can imagine our own deaths that's stopped us having a falling-out about it.

I could narrow it down to my sister and his brother, but I'd still prefer my sister even though his brother and SIL would do a great job.

We haven't talked to his brother and SIL about it though - we probably should.

sorrel - I'm very sorry to hear of your bereavement. What a terrible thing for you and your family to go through. I don't know what to say except I'm sure that you give your niece a loving home and family.

Ladymuck - Your point about recommitting (or not) once a year sounds excellent.

I'm afraid that the people we chose for ds and dd about 7 years ago are no longer suitable. Dh and I need to sit down and decide who is most suitable and then take it from there ie ask them and if they agree, write a new will. I did ask dd a while ago if she had 3 choices (Grandmother, all the various aunts and uncles, godparents and boarding school) who would she choose and she chose one unsuitable one (as scatty as anything and very laid back to the point of horizontal!), one who has 3 kids and a bump and a career, and boarding school. I think, though, the best thing would be for ds and dd to live in the family home here and for someone (and realistically, the one with the least to lose is the grandmother) to come and live here. There would be plenty of money to pay the bills etc etc and they could stay in their current schools. What a difficult choice, though. We realised the need to have it written down as otherwise there could be up to 6 family members each wanting to have them. And when it happens suddenly, I'm sure that no-one is thinking straight and is considering fully what's for the best both short term and long term. Grief does do funny things to people. This is a difficult topic, but this is an useful thread. I needed a prompt to update things. Thank you.

I forgot to say that the reason that I'd want ds and dd to stay put in the family home is that otherwise they'd have to move many miles to live with any family member. One lot are one end of the country and the other lot are at the other. Ds and dd would lose their school and their friends. They've got the next 6 to 8 years of their schooling planned out. I'd hate for that to have to change.

Thanks for the prompt must discuss this with dh and decide who we would like to approach re guardianship of our children.

hi everyone- sorry if i sounded a bit gruff in earlier post. Didn't mean to.
Anyway essentially the choosing of who will look after your children in the event of your death is the hard part. However as with everthing in a will, it can be updated as time goes on.

My brother had stated that he wanted our neice to go to my sister and BIL.( It NEVER occured to him that after loosing his wife that this would ever occur) However, in the time he made the will and the time he died(about 3 years), sis had had 2 kids and had 3rd on the way and had moved abroad. DB had not really considered me as i was at the time he made the will ,unmarried and living a jet set rock n roll lifestyle (hardly a good proposition and honestly, i would not have wanted the responsibility at the time)
Then I acquired a husband and as i said before Sis and BIL circumstances changed too.

db had also acquired a girlfriend and had verbally agreed with her that neice should live with her after his death. He only mentioned this the week before he died and none of the extended family had ever met her. ( he met her on the internet 2 months previously) In kindness to my DB I would say that his brain tumor did not help with clear thinking.
I went to see DB the week before he died( he also lived abroad)I spent the time trying to understand why he wanted the new girlfriend to look after dneice. However after he died he had not changed his will- as it turned out. This left it up to sister and BIL to decide what was to happen to neice.
It was at this point that DH and I (only recently married and returned from abroad) agreed to have her.
Anyway blah blah blah- all is well now except her mothers family have not made any of this easy.Lots of resentment floating about( detailed in other threads)
Also turned out that the executor - a neighbour of db's was a complete T**sER and quite honestly he has not sorted out the will still to this day. Choose very carefullly. This man was not even capable of reading the language that the will was written in, disappeared to another country for a year after brothers death and ended up having to be deposed, and a new executor appointed. in the meantime this has cost thousands caused untold grief to my ddad and dmum and made it impossible for anyone to properly get on with division of assets (loosing interest on the money all the while)nevre mind laying everything to rest and getting on with greiving.
I would urge anone with children and complicated families to sort things out. That is most of us on here. Don't be afraid. If people get offended about such a personal thing as looking after your kids forever- are they the right people for the job? I wish everyone the best.
To me it is just another aspect of being a mum or dad.

Sorrel,

Excellent advice based on personal experience.

Ok have checked about parental rights thing with the solicitors that issued my will and they confirmed that in the event of a mothers death. PR does not mean a child will be placed with father.

They discussed DP's DD as an example whom he has never met but pays CM towards. However he does not have PR because you both need to register the birth if unmarried to gain PR cause SS was born in 2003, Plus It wouldn't make sense for DD to go to him as opposed to the childs grandmother who has helped to raise her. Of course DP can contest this and go to court to gain PR but it is 50/50 chances of him getting it. Even if DP lives with mother and child at time of death.....family rifts can occur after death and it has been known for the mothers family, in fear of losing contact with the child try to file for custody (claiming fear of abuse, saying they were verging on splitting up etc)If given a good enough reason it is possible for the court to DISCHARGE PR from the father...Whereas in the case of the mother although it can happen......it rarely does.

So IMO a will clearly sorts all of this out!

I would advise that if there is any worries about this call a local solicitor or company offering wills and ask about some general advice

sorrel, thanks for coming on and telling us about your experience. Thinking about grief and all that, I can suddenly imagine my MIL and FIL demanding custody. Or, god forbid, my parents trying to get custody. Or my sister. Actually, there are absolutely no relatives I want to have my kids.

I think a local friend would be the ideal solution, I just have to talk DH around on this. Oh, and pick a local friend. Hm.

If the boys were bigger, I'd be happy to have them go to a single male friend, who's quite involved in their care at the moment, and could presumably move into our house. Well, he sees them once a week. The only thing is, he's only had one gf in all the time we've known him, and she was really really annoying (v. racist) and I wouldn't want my kids anywhere near anyone like that.