Advice please - ex-OH walked out of court before access arranged

[JuJusDad]

Hi all,

The interim hearing was last Thursday, I was granted interim residency (big sigh of relief), but the ex walked out before access was properly discussed.

Furtherest we got with it was that the Judge said she was not to have overnight access and CAFCASS officer had mentioned alternate weekends, so while back in chambers I offered that I'd be happy with 10 till 4 on alternate Sundays.

Shortly after she walked out. Judge said she was not prepared to make decision regarding access without her present, so I'm left hanging, I guess.

Thing is, I'd like her to have access to our daughter, even before CAFCASS do their thing and the next hearing makes some decisions - if only as I think it would be good for my ex's mental & emotional state.

But what sort of position will I be in if I allow that? Last thing I want is to end up in trouble with CAFCASS, or worse, she takes DD off somewhere and police turn round and say "why did you let her see her without access arrangement in place?"

Other bits: DD is 22 months, ex lives about 60 miles / 1 hour+ drive away with her new bf and his two kids: girl 9 yrs, boy 11 yrs. Me and ex were never married, I have parental responsibility as I'm named on birth cert (and now have residency anyway).

So, your thoughts and advice much appreciated, please.

It sounds as if you and the court think that your ex OH is very irresponsible and may harm your DD. Is that correct?

If so, do not let your DD spend time alone with her mother. Let her mother see her by all means, but only in your presence.

Well, I don't think she'd ever harm our DD, though the irresponsible part may / may not be right - at one point the CAFCASS officer said she was confused by what ex was saying - one moment saying she was homeless, the next that she was living with new bf of a few weeks.

I think the "harm" element is more that they agree with me that there is a risk that DD's mum might become so desperate that she may attempt to abduct DD back to her home in China.

The access I'm happy for her to have would be supervised in some way - either by me or a friend, but I know ex won't be happy with that.

would it be possible to arrive at a compromise and have more frequent but supervised visits?

I really feel for you, trying to do the right thing by your dd but getting no cooperation from exOH - my DH and I had huge issues with his exOH over their DDs welfare.

jujus dad - please don't think I'm being patronising, I'm sure you know this already, but there are centres specifically for supervised visits - neutral ground may help.

Can you speak to cafcass and ask if they can arrange some temporary visits at a contact centre in the interim?

tattifer - I looked into supervised access via CAB - they asked around and said it only happens through referral from Social Services as its usually reserved for situations where there has been domestic violence.

TBH, part of me does think, "stuff her, she had her chance to arrange access, so now she gets nothing."

But that's not helpful for her or, more importantly, DD.

It's more that I would like her to have access, but I don't want to find out that I've shot myself in the foot.

CarGirl - sounds like a good idea if they can do that.

Like I said, CAB said supervised access happens via Social Services, but I guess CAFCASS is part of that. (and bless em, CAB aren't always 100% accurate - said my court forms were fine, but solicitor said needed same info but on a new version of forms I'd used)

Should I wait for CAFCASS to contact me? How long does that take? Can I call them?

I see, I think it's a little different here, the judges recommendation was all that was needed, but there is a long long waiting list as there aren't that many of them.

The other thought was, perhaps better if contact lapses until something is better organised?

Have you changed your name? You posted under a different name about your OH/domestic violence from OH didn't you?

you don't need a referral from social services for a contact centre, you can speak to cafcass and they can arrange it.

However, in your position i would not contact your ex to make any informal contact arrangements for several reasons.

1. She walked out of court before any decisions were made and it sounds like she has not made contact with anyone since? Doesn't show commitment towards her dd at all. Any rational person would stay in court and fight to see their child.

1. The courts don't make orders for no overnights and refuse to issue orders for any kind of contact unless they have concerns. You need to take that on board.

1. If your ex cannot show commitment and put your dd's welfare above all else then you may need to accept that she is unable to play a part in her dd's life.

1. There is a history of DV if you are the same poster i am thinking of. Putting a child in a position where they may witness or experience DV is unacceptable. If your ex cannot remain in court and be rational then she is still a risk to your child as it shpows she has not taken on board the fact that her behaviour is not appropriate.

You talk about facilitating contact for the sake of your ex's mental health, that is not a good reason in my opinion. As the childs primary carer your priority is providing stability, a loving home environment and always being there for her. Part of that is to recognise that a birth parent is not always the best parent.

If in the long term your ex isn't going to be able to provide your dd with a loving nurturing relationship on any level then it really can be in her best interests to not have a relationship with her at all. Nothing is more destructive to a child than an unstable parent flitting in & out of their lives.

You can truthfully tell you dd that her mummy isn't well & couldn't cope.

It's not just social services that can make referrals to contact centres. Have a look here from the National Association of Contact Centres. CAFCASS are on the list of referrers.

As things stand, with you having a residency order (interim or not) while there is no contact order in place, you have no obligation to offer contact to your ex. Obviously you know your ex better than anyone here but I'd be very, very wary that she may have reacted very badly to the court order and so try to abduct.

Right now, and until the court makes a contact ruling, I'd not offer contact unless your ex asks for it. I'd also ask CAFCASS's advice in the meantime. And/or write a letter to the judge asking for clarification (send a copy to your ex or her solicitor).

Don't allow unsupervised contact for now, and don't supervise it by yourself - if there's just you, your child and your ex in the same room you are wide open to false accusations. I'm serious about this; one phone call to the police accusing you of hitting your ex in front of your child could make things go pear-shaped so fast your head would spin.

Finally, though, well done on the residency order!

pavlov - there were elements of abuse from her to me, but I wouldn't term it domestic violence. (other than when my head and heart were particularly screwed up from it all). That's as much as I'll respond to that - no offence meant (or taken, I hope).

idrankthetea - thanks - that's exactly the sort of info and advice I was looking for, even if (how do i put this?) at present all I can do is try to get to the same point of view as you're expressing - not easy to see the ex in those terms...

1. She's made contact with me since along lines of wanting to see DD, hence this posting.

1. Thanks for that. Obviously I'm utterly new to all this, so I've no idea how to take their decisions thus far.

1. (sigh) Yeah, you're right. I could tell you about her behaviour at court, but it might come across as me gloating. It isn't, it was tragic.

1. Again, you're right.

I'll just have to get my head round it all, and see if there's anything can be arranged for access. Thank you once again.

Gotta go for now, but will be back online this pm.

pavlov - you are supposed to identify name changers! I'm going to ask for your posts to be deleted.

quick ps before i go for now - big thanks to Snorbs too.

you are not supposed...

jujusdad, not being funny, but if you were a woman and she were a man we and you would be calling it domestic violence. It doesn't have to involve physical stuff. My DH was also a victim.

oh soor anna i did not know/think . fine by me to have em deleted.

sorry even.

tattifer, I agree. I was subjected to years of emotional abuse from my ex. That did more lasting damage than the occasional violence I was on the receiving end of.

Please be aware that, if there is no final order in place, the police may not be able to do anything if your ex-oh takes the child away. I'm not sure if an interim order has the same weight as a final order. If your ex takes the child and the police catch her, they may not be able to remove the child without a court order.

I would suggest only supervised contact until the court makes a final decision.

Does your dd have a passport? If yes, where is it? If not, then apply for one to stop your ex applying for one.

Totally agree with advice given by idrankthetea and sorbs You do not have to offer any contact at all but if you do, from the little I know I would say that it should be supervised, and preferably not by you.
Advice given by several posters ref referals to contact centres is correct, it does not have to be by social services although please be aware most centres have long waiting lists.

creativezen has a very good point about the passport, however given that I think I read that your ex is Chinese and assuming you are british and may already have a british passport for DD, you should be aware that she could potentially apply for a Chinese passport for DD without your knowledge.

Don't agree with the last comment about the interim residence order though. As far as I'm concerned, even though it is only interim, the order should still have weight and IF your ex did fail to return DD the police SHOULD removed DD and return her to you.

Sadly, it quite often happens that the police do not really understand how all these orders in the civil court work as it is something that they do not learn at police training school. Therefore, in the unlikely event of this happening, you just have to be firm about the fact that the Residence Order, interim or not, means that DD MUST be returned to you.

Good luck

In theory, one can self refer to a Contact Centre, but in practice, all of the referrals are made either by the courts/solicitor/CAFCASS.

Find your nearest one and ask! The contact centre closest to where your DD resides permanently would be the one to use, and is where the court would refer anyway...

Good luck