Delicate matter: Do you have power of attorney over an elderly parent's affairs?

[faraday]

Merely curious.

We approached this issue with my mum 2 years ago when she was 73, a year after my dad died (she inherited). Anyway, it didn't go down at ALL well!..

"I'll decide what I do with my money, thank you very much!"

Well, no, mum, the idea is I will decide what to do with your money, SHOULD THE NEED ARISE, to benefit you as far as I can! However, it'll be a damn sight harder if I have to GET power of attorney THEN!

Thing is, I have a profligate brother.... (always the favoured child!). He is single, and in financial strife, and we're both in our late 40's. We get on OK. I 'gently' put it to mum that my brother would, when push came to shove, put mum in the cheapest council care he could find if the alternative was compromising his inheritance. He already, on THE EVE of dad's wake asked mum to change her will so as to give him half of the inheritance (as opposed to 2/5 per child, him and me; 1/5 going to 'any grandchildren' ie MY DSs as luck would have it!). As far as I'm concerned, the money isn't an issue. We (DH and I) are financially reasonably well set up because we're both quite responsible! What IS an issue is the hell-on battle that could so EASILY occur with my brother if the day comes where we need to sell mum's house to fund her care. I appreciate a time comes, legally where we might have to but I'd rather sell earlier and fund better care. I'm not Mrs Goody 2 shoes here, just a responsible DD who recognises what needs to be done. But it pisses me off that mother is obstructing this!

I genuinely don't think (and hope that's why!) mother understands what power of attorney means. I was going to get her solicitor's receptionist to randomly send mum a brochure about PoA but was really worried the note might say 'Dear Mrs X, find enclosed the brochure as requested by your daughter'!

I should add that I'm intimately acquainted with my mother's finance as I did all of the sorting out of her finances when dad died (even though I wasn't an executor, being abroad at the time of will writing) and she was more than happy to tell me what's where and how much is in each, which I appreciate.

So it's not that it's a secret at all, just that she thinks PoA gives me the ability to withdraw her cash here and now! Like I would!

I have. But I have some bad news for you - the law changed last year and now it's really hard to get PoA without spending quite a bit of lawyers etc and going to court for an order blah blah blah. We rushed ours through before the deadline for this reason.

I bet she doesn't have a will either - you'll have that crap to deal with as well and it takes years

Find someone else her age to talk to her about it.

My dh and his sister have POA over ILs should the need arise iyswim. They are not elderly but they have considered it is the right thing to do and sorted it all out at the same time as doing wills/inheritance tax planning etc.

And then dh's nan (MIL's mum) went into a home and flatly refused to allow mil POA, but as she was not personally mentally capable of dealing with her own affairs MIL had to go through the court of protection in order to gain power over her affairs, and be able to sell the house etc. It took months, and was extortionately expensive (in excess of £2000).

Perhaps you could explain it to your mum as "mum, i don't want to have power over your affairs. Your money is your money and it is of course up to you how you spend it now. But if you were suddenly to be taken ill and require care, I would have no ability to make arrangements for any payments with regard to your care. And if you weren't able to deal with the finances and weren't in a position to give me permission, it could take months, and a lot of money, for me to be able to gain access to your finances and ensure you got the best care possible. This way it's not something we would have to think about at the time - and it's only something i would need to enforce if you weren't able to deal with things for yourself.

Yes I do. My mum put it through before the deadline for the same reasons as above. My sister, brother and I have (I think) joint power so that any 2 of us can make decisions on my mum's affairs.

I must say that death is relatively openly discussed in my family, so it's not out of character for this to be in place. Sometimes I think we talk about nothing else but advance directives, where we want to be buried, music at the funeral etc etc.

Could you try approaching your mum again now that the seed has been planted in her mind, and mention some well-admired cousin or often-mentioned neighbour's successful child, who has gone ahead with this? maybe from the POV that you are really worried about making sure that her wishes are carried out? would she respond protectively if she felt you were worrying? Gosh is that manipulative? probably, but IMO manipulativeness is quite necessary in family relationships.

This website explains the procedure. You can print the leaflet from here & send it to your mum anonymously if you want!

DH & SIL have an EPA for MIL, and they are not allowed to have a cashcard, so if your mum is worried you will 'withdraw all her cash' you can explain this to her.

me and my sister have POA over our father

he did it for us last year when he had a small stroke and realised it needs to be in place now rather than stressing about it and what will by definition already be a very stressful time anyway

Thanks everyone.

I think what I'll do is let the anniversary of dad's death (mid April) pass then raise it again.

TBH I have no idea why she's being so resistant. I feel that in part it's because- and I know I'm on dangerous ground here!- she's in that fairly fortunate generation where a) the mother didn't have to work (mum did part time 'pin money jobs); b) dad's pay was considered good thus bought the 'big house in the country' routine; c) his pension is by modern standards, excellent, which mum has of course inherited; d) they never had to physically dip into their own pockets for pension top ups, our college fees, any private health care etc. They were of the opinion 'We've put our share in, now it's our turn to take it out'. Now, bearing in mind dad retired at 57 (!!) 20 years ago, in rude good health, it MIGHT be countered they between them have already spent every razoo they ever put IN, AND some! And are currently spending what WE'RE putting in!

I never begrudged them that (apart from the odd barbed remark that modern women only work to buy the foreign holidays and annual new cars, bearing in mind mum's income never had to be considered towards BILLs and MORTGAGES...grr!) BUT I do wonder whether she feels money sort of grows on trees and that 'when the time comes' the NHS will provided thus she need not consider the need for ME to be able to dip into HER money to make sure she's properly cared for! One thing's for sure, WE (DH, I or profligate DB) certainly have no spare cash floating around for 800 quid a week care home fees! And it might rile to have to FIND that sort of money especially when she's currently sitting alone in a home that at height of market would have cost half a million quid!

I MUST add I have no interest in inheriting, which is WHY I want POA to avoid the situation where my DB's potential greed overcomes his judgement re the sale of the house to fund fees.

As you can probably imagine, mother doesn't want to even countenance the idea that DB would THINK of such a thing. Mmm.

FWIW neither of them would ever have considered tax planning either. There is a certain WW2 West Country parsimony about it: The old "Don't you think we owe YOU anything/we got to where we are by the sweat of our own brows, so must you", YET they used to go off in outrage when items came up on TV or in The Telegraph (funny, that!) about the Taxman's Big Grab, whilst happily effectively ceding him 40% of their 'excess' money upon death!

From the recent experience of my grandmother I'm not sure there is such a thing as 'cheap council care'. The only way that care is cheap is if you don't have any assets.

My father very sensibly gave POA to my sister and me about 2 years before he died, but in the end we didn't really have to use it as he was totally compos mentis until the end. It did make dealing with his Estate easier though, and we already knew his solicitor so that was better. at your brother wanting your mum to change her Will in favour of him.

Indeed. Thereby lies the problem!

My DB isn't a BAD person, just one who feels life somehow 'owes' him. He genuinely feels that HE should be bailed out over and above US because 'faraday and DH are doing OK, THEY don't need the money'! The reason we are, apparently, "OK' is because we HAVEN'T remortgaged or bought 6k motorbikes every year and drink 4 cans of lager a day and smoke 20 fags a day- on a van driver's wages!

my parents set up some complicated system a couple of years ago - I think there was a change in the law imminent, so they did it to get in quick. Basically (I think!) if one of them dies the estate is split in 2, half for the survivor, half in trust for the 3 offspring, but the survivor controls the trust unless not competent to do so, in which case my siblings and I have joint PoA .This also means that only the survior's half of the estate can be taken into account for care costs.

I couldn't get POA (father wouldn't hear of it) because by the time he needed it he was already incapable of understanding what he was signing. Had to go to court for Legal Guardianship which has both financial and welfare aspect. And cost £2,078. And took 7 months.

POA will make things much easier. My Dad was in hospital for more than a year as a direct result of the no POA situation. He couldn't make the decision to move, and I couldn't make it for him. And as he has to pay towards his care, and I couldn't access his funds a care home wouldn't accept him anyway.

I sympathise.

ProfiteroleThief - there are now two types of Lasting Power of Attorney - Property and Affairs and Personal Welfare

Dh and I have POA for mil (dh and his sibs) and my mother (me and my sib). It was much easier for my mother, who suggested it, but then she is younger and can see the benefits. Mil is already in decline, already having memory problems and the suspicion thing is a symptom of the memory problems I think. Still it is sorted now.

Dh and I also have POA over each other and think the childrens guardian also has POA - so if we were in terrible car smash for example, alive, but in a coma, the children could still be provided for.

Our wills also provide provision for our mothers care, since assuming we are alive we will contribute if necessary. A portion is ringfenced for the children, then the rest goes to mothers care as necessary, then anything left after they die, goes to children/god children.

Gosh, cicatrice, that must have been a very difficult situation. Poor you and your poor dad. Both my parents are dead now, and after experiencing various Will and Estate and legal issues after they died, I am now evangelical about telling people to sort this stuff out if they can, now, while their parents are still alive. But of course if the parent isn't willing, there's nothing you can do. I did have one success recently in persuading a friend's dad (another Estate planning refusnik) to sort out his affairs by telling him exactly how much money the tax man got from my wonderful hardworking dad when he died without a tax-efficient Will.

Slightly different from POA, but from the same stable of problems.

My DAD actually decided I should have POA for him after my Mum passed away. On the strength of that decision, my daughter now has POA for me. (And I'm hoping not to pop my clogs for some time to come!)

It's just being sensible, and well prepared. But I guess it depends on the people involved and the kind of relationships they have with each other.

wilbur, my Dad thought (with considerable justification as a heavy lifetime smoker and drinker) that he would just drop down dead of a heart attack, and that he wouldn't have any assets when he went.

But, actually although his assets are not large they are above the threshold for contributing to his care and his physical health until he had a fall last year, was really fairly good, considering.

I think that some people don't want to think about it because they don't want to think about dying, but, certainly in my Dad's case the lack of POA made his life a lot more difficult.

Yes, I think my mum is under the impression that she, too will just 'die in her sleep'. Because she's 75, 20 a day and not out she thinks she's either immortal or that cancer is a nice, quick, painless way to go.... she's also said 'I don't want to linger on, a living death'- but hasn't demonstrated to anyone that she 'trusts' me to make 'the right decision' when and if the time comes.

I really do have to approach this again.

I should sell tickets to the firework display!

Prior to October 2007 they were called Enduring Power of Attorney (EPA) but since then they have changed and are Lasting Power of Attorney. The EPA only relates to property and affairs and any reference to welfare would be struck out by the Court of Protection. Under the new style LPA's these can be financial or welfare but you have to apply for one of other or both.