BIt of a longshot - house used as asset for care

[Squitch]

Right, very briefly I look after and live with my mum, who has dementia. I also have a dd who is 3 and work part time.

I have just about admitted defeat and regretably accepted that I can't give mum the care she needs and she needs to go into a care home.

Unfortunately we do not meet the 'criteria' (whatever it is) that means mum's home will not be taken into consideration and therefore if I do take the decision to get mum full time care me and my daughter will be made homeless.

Aside from the fact that I've paid all the bills for the last 6 years and bought 90% of the furniture I am most gutted that it is my home. I was born here, my father died here and I assumed that I would stay here forever (its nothing flash, just home).

I have spoken to the council today, who are sending me the forms to put me on the waiting list (which in their words is 'crap') but have stated that until I become homeless and in crisis there is nothing they can do. Social services have been about as much use as a paper bag (and I work for them!).

So, are there any routes I can go down to see if these events can be avoided. When looking into it it does state that the county council can use their discretion, but it seems they arent prepared to do that in my case. Can anyone out there give me any advice?

Many thanks

do you have siblings? i ask as i wonder whether you can apply for power of attorney and get the house in your name.

thinking about it - even if you do - with their consent and a visit to a solicitor, you could draw up a legal document that puts the house in you and your siblings names.

Can your mum rent you the house to cover the cost?

custardo I don't think you can do that anymore, if ss think you have done that to protect the property then they just apply to get it over turned.

Sorry I really don't think there is much you can do. Perhaps you need to get some specialist legal advice because your daughter is so young.

The council can also choose to defer making you sell in exchange for a future claim on the house which might buy you some time.

Have you spoken to CAB or Help the Aged? If not, you should.

I think that's pretty much the way it works (from my limited experience). My gran is in care and at the moment, is running down her savings paying for it. It has been made perfectly clear to us, by her council, that once her money runs out (v quickly!), they expect her to sell the house to pay for care. Only once she is down to some figure (actually can't remember what it is) will they help fund her care.

But I think your best bet is to understand how the rules work and I'm not sure if they are council dependent or not tbh.

This page explains the criteria. I wonder if there's any wriggle room here given your daughter's age?

i have just read that age concern know their stuff on this

and would like to point you in the direction of shelter england. they have legal advisors you can speak to over the phone, they have a wealth of knowledge and if they don't know , they will know someone who does.

also using organisations such as age concern and shelter to advocate to the council on your behalf can shit them up into thinking that you are not worth the trouble of them looking bad at a managers meeting

where I work the limit is £22,500 in savings per person , below this the local authority will contribute towards care costs

"I am single and live with my elderly widowed mother. She owns the house outright and has savings of about £20,000. If she needs to go into care, what happens to me? Will the house have to be sold?

The only circumstances where the property can be disregarded is where it continues to be occupied by a partner (married or unmarried), a relative who is aged over 60 or incapacitated, a child under 16 who is dependent on the person in the care home, or a separated partner who is a lone parent. There is also discretion for the local authority to ignore the property if it is occupied by someone who gave up their own home to care for the person now going into care.

If none of these applies, then the value of the property will probably be taken into account. Rather than selling it, your mother could participate in what is called a deferred payments agreement, whereby the local authority will assist with the funding of her care fees but will take a charge against the property, to be paid back when it's eventually sold."

from
here

Unfortunately mum can't sign the house over, rent it to me etc. She is classed as not having mental capacity, plus I think that if you do that it has to be done 5 years before you actually need care ifysim.

I will get in touch with Shelter, hadnt thought of them. Age Concern are on my list of people to contact, I'm just too angry and upset at the moment, might give it a couple of days to compose my thoughts.

Social services have said that you get 12 weeks free care and then said that in all probability (but not definately)they would allow me to defer payments until such point that I moved out or mum no longer needed care, but tbh I'm being a bit 'cut of my nose to spite my face' about it now and think damn them, im not paying for the upkeep of the house for what could potentially be another 15/20 years for me to become homeless then.

Thanks for your suggestions, I kind of know I've not really got a leg to stand on, but I just hoped someone might now some sneaky bit of law that could get me out of it

Thanks for that Custardo - might come in useful. I won't give in without a fight, just may need others to help me i guess.

here an article on various ways of funding

might be worth a shot searching or posting on moneysavingexpert.com

might be worth a shot contacting the council to get her in a sheltered scheme initially.

although i am not advocating this - i could certainyl see myself playing through a scenario where i tell the council that my mother needs to go into a sheltered scheme as she is living in my home and i want my own space - and yes she has extra care needs.

as far as i know - no-one at the housing ever asks for proof of home ownership.

emoticon.

sure if they find out you might get some very nasty letters - whoopsy doo.

i wont tell em

and if you got to a point where thye askfor proof of home ownership - you could 'change your mind'

once n sheltered accom, she could access round the clock carers and other stuff from social services

i have a very devious mind.

So sad to hear this Squitch.
When the council were pushing us to sell Dad's house to pay for his care, the Help the Aged advice line were really good. Perhaps give them a try?
I think you may be able to get a 12 week grace period. Also think that the council could raise a charge on the house so that you could continue to live there (and inherit when the time comes) but then if you sell you have to pay back all the costs, which by then could be astronomical and totally wipe you out.
This is another of the gross disservices we do to our old people.
Silly old dad had put the names of all over-18s as joint tenants on the deeds back in 1984 when he bought the house, so the council were scuppered anyway - we offered them a £ for his share. But he died before they responded to our offer.
Am trying to talk MIL into letting her sons buy 'token' shares in her house now while she is still fit so that we can pull the same stroke again if necessary.

Before you give up with regards your mums property....

HAS YOUR MOTHER BEEN ASSESSED FOR ELIGIBILITY FOR CONTINUING NHS HEALTH CARE??

If she has not you kmuct contact her care manager/social worker or your local Primary care trust, and request that an assessnment be done.

CHC funding can be granted to anyone who falls into one of five categories, and basically speaking if someone is eligible they DO NOT have to contribute towards or use their own assets to pay for care.

If she HAS been assessed but not deemed eligibel then you must ask for an appeal, a good proprtion of cases are won on appeal.If you do not get any help from statuatory agencies then find a solicitor who deals in law with regards paying for car fees (there are quite a few about these days as its becoming a bigger and bigger issue) thwy will help.

I work in this field and unfortunately see this type of situation a lot, I would also say that local authorities CAN and DO excersise discretion in this type of case and I would be shocked if they were willing to make a small child homeless, and incur all the costs associated with finding you emergency accomodation.

Another suggestion: contact your local MP or councillor, it is (ahem) surprising how quickly a LA can change its stance on all sorts of issues when they are faced with a bit of bad publicity or someone who holds sway politically in the local area.

Finally, does your mum definately 100% need to go into a care home, what sort of care package does she currently have, does she have day centre provision, telecare, any of that which might make her syaing viable?

If you have any other questions please post them,i will do my best to help!

as far as i know - no-one at the housing ever asks for proof of home ownership

thats easy to check - just go to land registry and you can check who owns which house and if it is mortgage and who it is mortgaged to, all for the tidy sum of £3.

If you want to know who owns the house next door you can do or the house your exp is living in, just pop along to their website where you can do this online - agaisnt data protection to give infotmation on who you have your mortgage with

Thanks for that mimimilk. I do work for the local authority, thought about emailing the director tomorrow, would that be a bit too cheeky?

SHe has not been assessed for continuing NHS health care, but I will speak to her CPN about that tomorrow as well, is this something she will be able to help me with?

I will keep checking back, and will let you know how I get on tomorrow, thanks for all your help

I sort of presumed you had already been told your mum doesn't qualify for continuing health care. Sorry.
Yes you must push for this assessment. Does your mum have a community or hospital geriatrician? They need to set the ball rolling but you will need to really stay involved in this assessment and makes sure it's a true representation of your mum's difficulties.
You are looking for the assessment to say she needs health/medical care rather than social, as it's the social-care side that is self funding.
Again, Help the Aged were very useful to us.

Hi Squitch
just wondering if you managed to speak to anyone with regards the CHC assessment.
Your mums CPN may be able to do the assessment herself, at the very least the local PCt should be asking for a specialist mental health assessment (who does what varies from place to place).

In my area the community mental health teams would do the speacialist mental health CHC assessments. as next of kin they should be involving you every step of the way. You have the right to be present when they do the assessment and can get your viewpoints down (especially as you have been the main care provider).

The last few years have seen many many more clients with dementia being awarded CHC, it used to be that it was very difficult but people have been fighting for the rights of people suffering this terrible disease.

Like I said before, Do not be deterred early on as the PCT's dp seem to like to refuse the first application but then go on to agree at a later date.

Don't want to ask pointless q'a but regarding the decision to move your mum to care, are you totally satisfied that all has been done to avoid this?

Where i come from we would always try to give the maximum care package available, 5 days a week at day centre, plus up to four domicilliary care calls a day of up to 1 hours duration. Also respite 2 weeks in every 8 and a weekly 'sitting service' usually four hours which is often free of charge. telecare can be put in to monitor things when no-one else is in (but of course it would depend on how impaired your mum is)

Let us know how you get on!

Well so far today I have:

Left a message for mums CPN to give me a call, she was out and about today so I expect her to call me tomorrow.

Set up an appointment with a solicitor who specialises in housing, had a quick chat with him on the phone and he is going to look at the councils 'discretionary (sp?)' rules and see if I can go anywhere with that route.

With regards to the care package, I currently have 2 calls a day (morning and lunch time) from the dementia team, who are excellent. A night time call would be great, but unfotunately they can't come later than 9 so it would just be a bit pointless, I struggle to persuade mum to go to bed at 11 let alone 9 (and even though they are excellent they are very noisy, it would be a case of mum in bed but dd up I think).

I have just been offered 1 day per week at a day centre, the lady is coming tomorrow to chat about it.

I have booked some respite for a week at easter, but tbh it was SO much hassle and they made me feel SO guilty for asking for it, I don't know if i could face going through all that again. I know I'm entitled to 2 weeks every 8 but I doubt if that will happen, especially as mum has to contribute, but I'm still trying to sort out power of attorney so it's all coming out of my pocket (and I can't really afford even the minimum contribution).

Thanks again for all your help, I will keep you informed

I don't have any helpful advice, but just wanted to say good luck to you - I think this is so wrong.

sounds like you have made excellent progress, any more news?

Where did you live before you lived with your mum?
Did you give up your home and move in to care for her, if you did you may qualify for a disregard for the value of her home as per custardos post above.
I dont think they can force a sale but what they can do is put a charge on the property equal to the cost of her care up to the value of the lower limit. This could mean you could continue to live there but when the house was sold the money would have to be paid back. Also chase up continuing care as you may find she is entitled to free nursing care.

I would try Help the Aged or Age Concern.