contact order

[redpyjamas]

The papers for my ex applying for a contact order arrived yesterday.
He is abusive, controlling, narsissistic (sp?) and generally completely unsuitable to see the children unsupervised. Apart from anything, there is a substantial risk of abduction, but how do I prove such a thing?
So far he has chosen to see them only 4 times (in 6 years)in a contact centre as I insist on that, and contacted them by letter a handful of times.

Please, I just want someone with experience to tell me what the chances are that he would win the right to have unsupervised access.

what can I do?

is there a chance that he'll lose interest and drop the matter? I mean, he does not even live in this country, and is not genuinally that bothered with the children. He just likes control. That is why he is doing this. Why now, after 6 years?

I am so upset, as you can probably tell.

Any positive reassurance, or personal experience welcome.

I know I need to sort out a solicitor. Just wanted to hear some helpful words before that...

It's a long process. With courts and solicitors and cafcass involved. Where is he from and how old are your kids?

they are 6 and 8, and he is nigerian. would they have a say in the matter?

Think they're a bit young. But they can say what they think and feel. Up to judge if he listens to what they want. Think it's called a wishes and feelings meeting with cafcass. How do they feel? If he lives abroad then it will be difficult for him. My ex has trouble enough with phone contact in this country

He would need to prove he can maintain some indirect contact first, and re establish a relationship with them. My ex is doing this now after not seeing them for 2 years. Eldest refuses all contact with him, and he was told she can't be forced. She's 14

Think they're a bit young. But they can say what they think and feel. Up to judge if he listens to what they want. Think it's called a wishes and feelings meeting with cafcass. How do they feel? If he lives abroad then it will be difficult for him. My ex has trouble enough with phone contact in this country

He would need to prove he can maintain some indirect contact first, and re establish a relationship with them. My ex is doing this now after not seeing them for 2 years. Eldest refuses all contact with him, and he was told she can't be forced. She's 14

LOL ..... Twice!

Sounds like he will need some dedication tho. Does he?

how long is the process?

I just know that is he ever gets them unsupervised, the results could be devastating for them.

The whole point of leaving him was to keep us all safe. I can't let them into his 'care'.

so worried, it's unreal.

he's never been dedicated in the past.

what would happen if he just didn't pursue it? would it go ahead anyway now that it has been started?

what dedication does he need? he has started the process from abroad. his solicitor signed the application on his behalf.

I know, it is worrying. Was he ever violent to them? How will he afford court expenses? What kind of contact is he requesting? All these things affect level of contact. You'll be I and out of court for a year or so, if it's straightforward. Will he be travelling from Nigeria for every hearing?

He would need to pursue it as there will be cafcass involvement. He would need to meet with them for a start. Tho not sure how it all works if he's abroad. You can have a prohibited steps order and perhaps residency granted to you in case of any attempted abduction. Is he in an Hague convention country?

he was violent to me in front of them, an they were on occasion caught up in it.

he wants to take them out, he says. bizarre as he never ever bothered when he had the chance.

would he have to travel to uk for each hearing? he would be absolutely fine money-wise, but just has a track record of cancelling and not showing dedication. if it is inconvenient, that is my only hope.

not a hague convention country. that is partly why I am so worried. it would only take once, and their lives are ruined.

thanks for your replies. really appreciated, by the way

As he hasn't seen them for so long then he would certainly start with supervised in a contact centre,working up to unsupervised.......if he got that far. Do kids want to see him?

what do cafcass do? If they deem him unsuitable or a danger/risk whatever, would they speak up in court?

he has seen them in contact centre, but not a lot (4 times in 6 years, and most of them cut short by himself) How many times would he have to do it before he'd get unsupervised? would he really get that, despite the risk? I mean, he would put on a show in the contact centre and not show his true colours.

they like seeing him, but by their comments I get the impression that they don't have trust in him. he lavishes them with presents and rants on and on about how he loves them, and what he will do in the future. Everything is always what he will do, but he never gets on and does it. Not until now, seemingly (if he carries this through). I so hope he does not.

it is his application. he needs to set out what he is asking for and reasons for past lack of contact etc. so you know what is in issue.

you in turn should raise your concerns in comprehensive / reasoned / detailed way from the very outset. make sure you are clear about all past abuse / dv and anything seen by the dcs and any effect on them. court has a duty to investigate dv if it is likely to be relevant to contact issues.
you could cross apply (make your own application for a prohibited steps order to prevent him removing them from your care / from england and wales.
if you dont think face to face contact is in the children's interests then say so loudly and clearly. let the court decide and dont be bamboozled into agreeing something you dont really agree is ok for them.

court iss likely to need full statements / possibly a fact finding hearing about any disputed issues of dv / a cafcass report as to what contact if any is in children's interests. will take months.

so stay calm. agree to nothing you are uncomfortable with and think about getting some legal advice from specialist family solicitor. please dont panic. it sounds as though it may all be a load of nonsense. if he is living in nigeria how is he going to be around regularly to take up weekend visiting contact?? or is he likely to suggest dcs are put on plane to nigeria?? if so that will make it clear he is a loon.

good luck!

Judges do tend to rely on the cafcass report it seems. Regular contact is what kids need so think they would advise he writes and calls and emails.
He would need to build a relationship. He sounds like my ex with the promises. When is your hearing? Mine started nov but still waiting for cafcass so you should be safe for a good few months yet

thanks both of you.

initial hearing in april.

what will cafcass ask? I mean, the children only have relatively positive images of him as I have not slated him and they have only seen him being 'good'. I left when they were just 2 and 3 months.

would he have to see them every weekend then, in order to be taken seriously? how long for?

No not every weekend. But I really don't know how this would be viewed by cafcass and courts. My ex lives 230 miles away, and he's requesting visiting once a month. In meantime he's got indirect contact. No experience of cafcass myself just yet. I had a terrible case of Dom violence with him, he's still carrying it on with new partner and her kids.......but I know he'll get contCt eventually. Insist maybe, on having third Party handovers so you don't have to see him..

I just don't understand why any court would EVER grant a violent parent access to their children, even if it is not directly towards them (yet). I just don't get it.

It makes me so sad. My children have always (in their memory anyway) had a safe and nurturing environment. They are not used to the kind of dysfunctionality that is his life. It would scar them.

Does anyone have experience of the whole court process from start to finish? I just wish I could prepare myself for the likely outcome.

thank you all.

I don't think anyone can give you a description of the whole process that will apply to you. Each case is different and each judge has their own mind.

Outcome is also a secret.

But basically - a judge can order anything at anytime. He/She shouldn't for example give full residency to your ex on the first hearing - but they can.

Okay now for generics.

First hearing judge is going to only know what has been submitted. He says you say. Judge will say I don't know - so should order some background stuff. CAFCAS in england/wales. These in england/wales are people that will go at talk to you/him and investigate other relevant facts etc. From what I have read - they can be useless to very good. (sorry).

They will produce a report - maybe recommendations. You goto court, argue a bit more, perhaps accept somethings, perhaps ask for others.

Generally if a judge feels contact should go ahead, he/she will phase it in slowly. They will want feedback also, and phase in some more.

Eventually assuming all smooth, you will get to a point of either agreeing or having a proper court hearing - experts witnesses etc.

Then a decision will be made. You can appeal (I think) and drag this on and on.

Also during the standard parts, you can argue and disobey and drag it out and out.

The judge will keep hearing and ordering.

Timeline - don't know. I think its 6-12 months. However where things are not going right, I've seen people talking about years.

On you violence - have you got proof ? I would start preparing all the facts, witnesses people who can testify. Try to get a solicitor (good one) and some good people to listen and bounce things off. Sometimes you get people around you saying things that make you feel good - but will come across in the legal system as a controlling/freaked out/hysterical mum.
Also on the abduction worry - any proof - any threats? I presume you have their passports? If he visits less than once a year, the court is not going to say here you go alternate weekend now. He has to build up some relationship. Where does he stay, what is to keep him here?

These are things you need to start writing down, and then get some good advice as to relevancy and strength.

I am in the middle of my own court action. I know the anxiety it causes. In your case double so.

The process is usually;

One party makes an application.
A date is given for a First Direction Hearing (or similar name) which is where the application is heard.
At this point you can either;

1. Agree to the request for contact and ask for a Consent Order to be made,
2. Disagree with the application and request that a Cafcass report is made and further investigation carried out.

At this point, if you are disagreeing with the application you must make sure you state that you wish all interim contact to be either indirect (so phone calls and letters/emails only) or supervised at a contact centre.

Cafcass will then arrange to meet you and your ex separately, then will normally wish to observe you both with the children. With older children they will occasionally speak with the child alone but yours are too young for this. The report takes about 12 weeks.
When dealing with cafcass make sure you do not allow any personal comments about your ex to come out. You need to get across that you are not a mother who is opposed to contact through bitterness but that you have legitimate concerns.
Before seeing cafcass write down past events in a chronological order to jog your memeory and make sure you have all the facts straight in your mind.

Once the report is ready you will attend a Finding of Fact hearing. This is where the judge will go through the report and hear from both parties. (don't worry, it's not like a criminal trial).

At this point the judge will either agree with cafcass recommendations and make an order to that effect, or he can make an interim order and ask for a review hearing in say six months. At this point he could make another order......

Make sure you get yourself a decent solicitor who specialises in family law.
If your ex has only seen thge children four times in 6 yrs it's unlikely that he would get full unsupervised access immediately. It would be more like a period of regular visits at a contact centre then moving up to being allowed to take the children out of the contact centre for an hour or so per session, then eventually cutting out the contact centre and having the children for the day unsupervised.
Overnight contact would depend on where he was planning to stay with the children (as he is not resident in this country) and also how well contact was going in general.

Thank you. I am today trying to arrange a solicitor. No one seems to be in the office, so it is frustrating. Also trying to make my dd birthday a nice day. He really knows how to time it, doesn't he?

So, I'll just write down every bit of abusive and inappropriate behaviour I can remember. I just have to hope that the judge will take his past seriously, and not just accept that he has changed as he will say he has. I cannot prove that he has not changed of course.

I don't feel a lot of hope, just knowing that judges seem to grant contact to abusers in general. Why?

I can only hope that the process is more troubke to him than he bargained for, and that will either cause him to drop it, or drag it out. The older the children get, the wiser they will be and more able to protect themselves from abduction. And the longer they live in a stable environment, the better their judgement of a toxic one.

Thanks to you all for the support and advice.

please dont feel completely hopeless about this. you've had some good advice on here and it's fab that you're going to get some proper legal advice. taking action will make you feel less passive in all this. so chase an appouintment, write down all you can about past behaviour / reasons for opposing any / direct / unsupervised contact, make a list of all your fears... and dont agree to anything you done feel ok with.

cant see personally how he will have any regular contact if he's in nigeria. there are orders that can be made if there are grounds to fear abduction.... surrender of his passport to a solicitor during any period of contact... orders that he cannot apply for any travel docs for the children.... etc.

judges dont award contact to abusers willy nilly... they have to reach a reasoned decision in which the children's welfare must be the paramount consideration. one reason you should make this the court's responsibility not yours.

stay strong. good luck!