Liability for Leak from Shared Pipe

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I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with liability for leaks? I have a rental property which is a terraced house. Next door is experiencing a serious leak which they have investigated by digging down through their kitchen. They have found an old lead pipe which apparently serves various properties. They can't find exactly where the leak is coming from but it's coming out of the ground from the direction of underneath our house. I've spoken to United utilities who won't fix it as it's on "private land" although they may apparently pay you to £500 towards the cost of the fix. Although that could involve committing to doing extensive works. The insurance company say they may not cover it as even though the leak seems to be coming from underneath our house, it isn't actually causing damage to our house. Next door's insurance won't cover it because the leak is coming from a shared pipe underneath our house. Apparently to sort it it is likely to involve taking out the kitchen, digging up the floor and rehousing the tenant for a while. So ££££. Everyone is scratching their heads. Obviously next door can't just live with the leak. Does anyone at all have any experience of this type of thing? Help!

I would say the first job would to be get a CCTV done of the pipe so it can be traced and mapped and any cracks located - it may well be that it’s not from your house but a location further along under another property so that needs determining first - as to who pays for that - really it should be the house who has the damage - they cannot say for certain the leak is from your property and so can’t determine liability at this point

how old is the terrace? A combined water / foul system is not unusual for horses of a certain age

how’s the leak presenting itself if they have dug up their kitchen??

CCTV down the pipe. Depending on what they find it may be possible to put a plastic liner inside the pipe, they usually have 20 year guarantees. As for damage - neighbours may have a claim on public liability if it coming from your property. Your insurer may try to argue its wear and tear and not covered, check the exact wording of your policy and dont be afraid of threatening to go to/ actually going to the insurance ombudsman.

Thank you. Not sure where they would insert the CCTV though. There's just a bit of pipe sticking out of some earth under the boundary of the houses and then water gushing out around it. Thanks. I guess it's v likely to be wearing and tear given it's an old lead pipe. Oh my goodness

I’d check if you had legal cover under your house insurance policy and get them involved. I have recently encountered this scenario as part of a discussion for further studies within insurance but I had never previously been aware of it. I think if your neighbour got their insurance to fix it, their insurer could approach your insurance company (and those of the other neighbours served by this pipe) for a contribution to the cost of the repairs.

If there is a bit of pipe sticking out they can stick a camera up it. The water flowing out of it may be a problem but I know they can do it when some water is present.

insurance companies response to this sort of thing is frequently not us. https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/businesses/complaints-deal/insurance/home-buildings-insurance/damage-underground-pipes

Thanks for your responses. The terrace will probably be more than 100 years old. I have a couple of videos of the leak but don't think you can upload videos, so will try to attach a screenshot from one of them. Basically there's a pipe coming from some earth/concrete (?) behind where a kitchen unit was and you can see water coming out of the concrete next to the pipe. I guess I need to ask them to insist that their insurer investigates, although apparently they have been told no dice. I can't imagine it being anything other than wear and tear with an old pipe. Had better read the policy wording. I have a feeling this is going to be a long, painful and costly affair

More lovely images

If you can see water gushing out surely that is where the leak is, can't they dig around the leak and fix the pipe, replace a length? Is it fresh water, foul water, or run off water? Has anyone lost water pressure to their taps? Won't the water provider even come out to determine what the problem is, it could still be their problem if no one knows where the leak is (although it seems pretty obvious if you can see the water coming out). Has there been building work going on anywhere that may have damaged the pipes?

It really doesn't seem like it's your problem if you don't have a leak or any water damage and you have water pressure. The neighbour is going to have to get someone in to trace the leak only then can you have the discussion of who pays, insertion might be the best, least disruptive option. If it's a really old degraded pipe it may just spring another leak if they just fix that one.

Read the Ombudsman link. They explicitly decided in one case that while there probably was wear and tear the leak was still sudden - and therefore should be covered.

In this situation you dont actually know if the water is coming from that pipe or even if that is a water pipe and is still connected to something. You have water, you have a pipe but no evidence one is causing the other. Sorry I cant see the pictures well enough to tell but if that is a capped off pipe it could be an old gas pipe.

You are actually going to need someone with a flow meter to see if there is water moving through that pipe. If there is it would be possible to cut it to put a camera in, you dont want to be doing that if it's a gas pipe. You also need to test if that is clean water or sewage - does it smell a lot?

Before you find someone with a flow meter (water board maybe?) have you tried turning off the water supply to your home for an extended period to see if that stops the water flowing out? Fill your kettle, saucepans if you need to cook and see if the flow stops. Dont flush toilets. If the flow doesnt at least reduce then maybe not from your property. When you do start up again I'd be looking at getting coloured water into the system.

This is not as straight forward as, if it's on your property, it's your responsibility if the pipe is shared.

There was a leak on the pipe on our back garden last year. However the leak was on the portion of pipe after it had served our house, and that particular piece of pipework only served the neighbour. They had to pay to repaired it (via housing association)

If the leak had been in the shared portion. Then it would have been join responsibility. My sole responsibility is actually a very small portion of the pipe, think bottom of a T.

Water companies have good explanations of the shared/sole responsibility for shared pipes on their websites.

Shared pipes responsibility is shared - unless it's a main sewage pipe and that would be the local water company even on private land. All mains sewer pipes are water company responsibilities since 2011.

There's no way that you can cctv lead water supply pipe. They are usually about half an inch or less (especially if you have limescale) in diameter.
Just get it repaired. The water under the house will soon be a lake and could cause problems with floor joists and foundations. Even better get your supply separated from your neighbours with your own internal and external stop taps. You may benefit from better water pressure and flow. Check with your water company to see if they offer free lead replacement schemes (they have targets for reducing lead in water).

Is it clean water or sewage? You can’t cctv clean water pipes because they run fully bore under pressure and there’s a serious risk of contamination of the supply.

If the pipe is leaking then it wont have the same pressure as an intact pipe. Tools exist for water pipe inspection, not just for sewer pipes, so someone is using them. You could sterilise first and any contamination will flush out but if the pipe is broken there is likely worse in the supply already than a camera. Visibility is a problem though.

Do you have house owners liability included on your policy? This should cover damage caused to a neighbouring property by something that has occurred on your land. The neighbour should get their insurance company to sort out their damage and claim it against your policy. First you would need to establish exactly where the damage is so you can establish the chain of liability.

They cant repair - and will want to replace anyway if its in use - a pipe until they know exactly where the pipe goes and what, if anything, it is being used for. At the moment there is water, there is a pipe with no obvious leak and no evidence the two are connected. There is no evidence that pipe is actually still in use. The pipe may be the source of the water and OP may want to see the pipe replaced anyway. But it's going to be an expensive job and not one she should be accepting any liability for yet.

OP has anyone measured the diameter of that pipe and have you tried coloured water in your waste? Screwfix sell suitable dye.

Thanks again for all your help. Thankfully we haven't heard further from the neighbours, although that doesn't mean we won't. We have had a plumber go round and see our (tenanted) house. Their opinion is that the kitchen extension at the back of our property has a new (blue plastic pipes) and also separate water source. They think that the water supply to next door is separate to our house. I don't know whether or not that is accurate, but that was their opinion. They didn't go into the house with the leak. Myself, the plumber and the rental agent all think (hope) that next door simply panicked and were looking to get someone else to pay. I think we'll just have to wait and see whether they contact us again. If they can't fix it without going under our house then of course it's still a problem. We shall see. I haven't done the flushing out, measuring, investigating as it's someone else's property miles from us and next door to our rental. Thank you again.

Your plumber's comments only help if that is a clean water pipe, unless you already know where the waste from the toilets/ bath or shower are going.

If they do get back to you ask them if they have checked the things mentioned - diameter of the pipe, whether water is flowing through it. If it's a clean water pipe I dont know if they can line it with plastic but I suspect not and anyway lead needs replacing.

Hope they find the leak is from elsewhere and stop chasing you.

Bloody hell I somehow read this thread title as, ‘Liability for Leek from Shepherds Pie’.

It’s Friday, I must be tired!

Just thought I'd let you know what happened on this. I had a plumber and a builder out both of whom confirmed that next door is on a different spur/pipe to our rental house and that there was no way the leak could be coming from us. They didn't give me a written report though. Just confirmed on the phone/by text message.

The lady next door had a scribbled invoice saying "that'll be £x. It's coming from next door" which apparently I had to take as gospel.

When I suggested we go halves on a formal report she rejected this.

She demanded a formal investigation from me, but apparently no need for her to provide any evidence beyond a scribbled note that it was coming from my side.

She then went beyond repeatedly calling and hassling the letting agent and my lovely tenant (who was amazing throughout and I've sent a present to for all their help).

She called the police on me - great.

She emailed her local MP about how evil the evil woman who owns the house next door is.

I get it. I must be evil. All I could think was that she must really believe what she's saying. And I felt for her a bit. She lives in a terrace in Accrington. She won't be really well off. I thought she must believe it.

So anyway at my wits' end I paid nearly £600 for a formal report. My lovely tenant took a half day holiday to let them in. The date was confirmed with the lady next door before the booking was confirmed. Payment up front etc etc.

The morning of the appointment I got a call from the plumber. They were in next door (kids at the window) but refusing to answer. The tenant knocked, the agent called. They kept on trying. Nothing

So the upshot was she can call the police on me and tell her MP that I am a piece of work (the MP's assistant responded saying that she should call United utilities to do the works and then bill me for it. Helpful).

She made me spend hundreds on a report. And then she refused to open the front door.

What can you say?! Got to chalk it up to experience and hope we don't hear from her again!

Personally if it wasnt at least a text I wouldnt have paid the plumber/ builder, But now I'd be reporting her to the police for harassing you and your tenant.

Had to pay the specialist plumber up front for a minimum of 3 hours. No come backs 😶

Does the plumber ever want you to use him again or recommend him to others? A 2 minute text is not much to ask for. Time to report neighbour to police for harassment.

The first plumber was basically the friend of a friend who was doing me a favour. He didn't charge me anything though I offered to pay for his time, so I'm definitely not annoyed with him! I don't think writing a report is something he'd be comfortable doing. He did send a short text. He's more of a talky guy.

To be honest I spent so many hours on the phone to so many different people I'd hope I just don't hear from her again. I think there was a bit of a language barrier and an element of I'm pregnant and catastrophising. There was certainly a lot of "you're making pregnant me and my kids live with a leak, you evil cow" element to it. The idea of spending further hours on it doesn't appeal!

When it was initially all kicking off and I had the letting agent telling me I may have to pay to rehouse our tenant, rip out the kitchen and the floor and had the insurance company and United utilities washing their hands of it I was so stressed I nearly had a car accident. I was driving along speaking to my parents very upset and just didn't see a car coming. Thankfully no contact. But yes it was stressful and I just hope it's now ended.

Thanks for your comments.