HELP - Wage Query!

[payrollquery]

HI I am hoping someone here can please help me!

This is a real life situation but all the people I’ve asked can’t give a definitive answer on how to work this out correctly!

Scenario:

John 17 is an apprentice. Started with employer on 01 May 2025. Contracted at £7.55 per hour 30 hours per week. Rota operates Monday - Sunday. Paid weekly.

Due to the nature of the business working hours could be less than or more than 30 hours per week.

May - July John was paid for 30 hours per week at £7.55 per hour.

John had holiday during this time.

John was told in August that he had been overpaid. John owed hours back to the business.

From 1st August - 31st October John received a payslip showing hours worked 30 at £7.55 per hour. But received pay into his account for 10 hours. The payslip shows no deductions other than Tax and National Insurance.

John has been told, that he still owes hours as the hours they work are banked and that he was overpaid May - July.

John cannot understand this at all.

John has not been told exactly how many hours he owed or how many he has paid back.

Please can anyone make sense of this.

John has asked his employer but they are not confirming the current position clearly as they say they too are confused.

How does John resolve this?

Thank you if you understood the above!

He needs a timesheet or a detailed list of exactly which hours he worked each week and the holiday taken. He is entitled to holiday pay

He should also have a talent coach who is overseeing his apprenticeship outside of the business. They should be able to support him in recording his hours.

I assume his employer is a small business as their record keeping is shocking

He has a mentor, but the employer is not responding to emails/calls. The mentor has been told they shouldn’t really get involved in pay issues.

As a pp says you need a time sheet from 01/05/25. Make sure hours are clearly marked as training hours and holiday including BH. Compare how many hours worked with how many hours paid.

If his mentor is responsible for the apprenticeship aspects, they need to help him to record his time to reflect the 20% training he is legally required to have. As part of this he must record the other categories of his time - holiday, training, work etc

It’s recorded in-house we can’t get a copy.

I’ve asked and been told no.

@payrollquery Going forward get him to start his own timesheet, ideally from this Monday.

At work he should email the Data Protection Officer and do a specific Subject Access Request (SAR) asking for a copy of his timesheets from 01/05/2025.
Also ask for a copy of his leave entitlement and leave taken.

Thank you.

Yes, hours are now recorded daily.

It’s a small business with 6 staff. An outside accountant manages payroll. They won’t say who the accountant is to make direct contact to try and resolve this.

@payrollquery Is the company registered with Companies House?
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

I would try several searches e.g. company name, directors names etc.

If it is registered look for the last accounts and they should name the accountants.

The accountant should only be paying via the payroll what they are told to by the employer, so it is down to the employer to explain the calculations.

Your DS is being treated appallingly. I think I would start to support him in finding a new job.

The accountant will process hours from the employer, it is highly unlikely they will be authorised to speak to employees and answer questions directly. Being paid for 10 hours but payrolled for 30 is not right and that sounds to me like the employer's doing not the accountant - as the accountant is still producing a payslip for 30 hours. As the pay and payslip differ, I'm guessing someone at the employer is actually making the payment and the deduction for 'overpay' so I wouldn't fuss about the accountant.

The concept of paying flat hours isn't unreasonable, smooths cash flow for the employee and makes life much simpler where payroll is outsourced, but is obviously dependent on hours being recorded correctly.

Does John have google tracking turned on on his phone (it's amazing how many people do without realising it) or any family location apps which will provide a history of where he was & when? Presumably, he knows which days he's worked, is there anyone he WhatsApp's regularly in his own time i.e. can you get an idea of when he might have finished work on a particular day from his message history. Was he travelling with another employee who can give him a copy of their timesheet as an idea of the hours? This is all to try and recreate a rough history of his working hours for his records.

Is he attending College? If so, the College day(s) of an apprenticeship are included in the paid hours and should be relatively easy to calculate, e.g. 9-4 less an hour for lunch and allow for half-term/holidays. The apprentice agreement (with the College) also details working hours. As a 17-year-old, the legal maximum he can work is 8 hours a day and 40 hours a week.

Ensure John has registered for an online HMRC account, that way he can see what HMRC are being told are his wages every pay period (probably 30 hours). His contract should say who his manager is, and if not, he should contact HR/payroll - in a small company it is highly likely this all needs to go to the MD, he should start informally and failing that, raise a grievance. You say the employer says they're confused - someone there is making the decision to only pay him 1/3 of his wages, so he needs to try and find out who, and normally whoever his day-to-day mentor/trainer is in the business will know who physically makes the payments. Remember all the requests need to come from John as he is the employee however tempting it is to ask on his behalf while trying to help.

ACAS has good information on its website and a helpline to talk you through the process of challenging the employer informally and, if needed, formally.

This deduction would take him under NMW - he can’t have been overpaid this much to not have noticed !

PP is correct that the deduction will take him under NMW so it is illegal.

Is he meant to fill in a time sheet each week? Our apprentices have to & I then check the time sheet against the one of the engineer they are with & the vehicle tracker.

the response from the employer is not good enough. He needs to put in writing that he wants a breakdown of how they have calculated these owing hours. I’d advise him if he gets no response to contact ACAS & tell them it’s regarding unlawful deduction of wages.