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Complicated IHT questions- unexpected trust in WILL

29 replies

Marshbird · 28/10/2024 18:46

Background: my dad passed away recently. He has his property in his sole name since mum died 20 plus years ago. When mum died all their assets were joint and went to him obviously exempt of IHT.
he has since been in a relationship with a partner of 20 years. She is a resident of another country outside of England. She and him viewed the,selves as common law spouses but never made legal partnership or marriage and she has never been on deeds of his house. However, they lived togther in her country, and coming over here to uk 3-4 months a year. She’s viewed dad’s house as hers for years. While they were over in othe country my eldest sibl8ng was DDs LPOA and basically ran the house and his accounts for him. Out of the goodness of his heart or parenteral duty 🤷🏼‍♀️😵‍💫. Sadly dads spent last 4 yard in care home with dementia. Partners been coming in and out of uk for periods her visa will allow but didn’t move here permanently at any point. Should add she has her own house in her country - sole tenant equivalent.

issue
so DD has made an absolute quagmire of a will. He could have left house to her outright but didn’t. It now goes in trust for her to continue to live in or use as “holiday” home she has been doing for rest of her life. And then at her death, or if she wishes to sell, it’s sold and proceeds split between whoever is surviving out of her and my siblings and me equallly. My elder sibling and his partner are joint executors and trustees of this trust. My sibling knew nothing at all about this before DD died, DD refused to talk to anyone about his will, dying, funeral etc.

on face of it ok…BUT, she is a good deal younger than dad and very fit and healthy. I can see my poor elder sibling in his 80s still trying to manage to run a house in good order with a 90yewr old woman. Dads effectively stuck him to her for the rest of her life. There is nothing in the wording of the trust in the will to say what would happen if she, life dad, lost mental competency, or even in her 90s couldn’t cope with running the house on her own. She has no children, and nearest relatives more than 300 miles from DD property. Whilst it says she responsisble for paying house related stuff how on earth will this work in practice if she is both beneficiary and trustee of this trust? Anyone have experience of this- how to make those arrangevents work. I naive believed DD couldn’t do something like this as it places a “burden” on the final beneficiaries- and it’s a massive burden particualrly on my eldsest sibling

And then I have a whole bunch of questions around what happens to IHT, with respect to the housing allowance. Does this reduce IHT down for both my mums share and dads share as he’s not leaving house direct to his children? I asked this but eldest sib doesn’t know and is working on a £350k allowance which isn’t taking into account mums unused allowance. He’s not best with financial stuff 🤯🤷🏼‍♀️

and what does it mean for us siblings in terms of theoretically owning a second home for years …what if roof leaks and she doesn’t want to fix it, will we have to pay if she’s too old to take to court? Do we pay capital gains on it form our own allowances once it is sold if we’re even still around. What happens if she looses mental competency and is never going to use it agian but can’t explicitly tell us we can then sell?

? I’m thinking of everything thst can go wrong with this hair brained scheme, and just don’t understand how a solicitor could have written this without saying to dad he needed to determine all this stuff and have a conversation with at least eldest sibling on whether it was fair to burden them.

I’ve gone form mourning dad to being frankly angry with him …which is not what I ever expected.

anyone out there know anything about this? Anyone shed light on whether this is standard where it’s not a marriage or out own mother or blood relative involved as benefactor of trust and executor and trustee!

OP posts:
unsync · 28/10/2024 19:04

What does the solicitor overseeing Probate say? Presumably whoever put the trust in place can advise. Without seeing the trust, no one here will be able to give accurate advice.

Marshbird · 28/10/2024 19:18

Well it’s not a trust as such, just wording in the Will itself…a few sentences
im not executor, I’m not “allowed” to talk to solicitor that wrote will…it would go down very badly if I interfered…hence posting on here if anyone has similar experience…

all I have seen is a copy of the Will and elder sibling talking me through .

OP posts:
Marshbird · 28/10/2024 19:18

Should also add there will be No solicitor overseeing probate- executors are doing it themselves.

OP posts:
MissConductUS · 28/10/2024 19:21

The only thing you can do now is to engage your own solicitor to advise you.

annonymousse · 28/10/2024 19:30

I am no expert and this might not be appropriate but would she be willing to do a deed of variation to sign it over to the family. She might not even want an interest in the place.

Marshbird · 28/10/2024 19:35

MissConductUS · 28/10/2024 19:21

The only thing you can do now is to engage your own solicitor to advise you.

That’s a no chance in finding out then, I can’t afford a solicitor !

OP posts:
Harassedevictee · 28/10/2024 19:36

@Marshbird from the sounds of it, it is a life interest trust.

You have way too many questions for them to be accurately addressed on this forum. I would strongly recommend your brother, as executor, gets legal advice.

In your shoes I would be getting my own legal advice and asking if there is anyway to “dissolve” the trust by everyone agreeing to selling the house and splitting the money. The will seems to provide for this.

Marshbird · 28/10/2024 19:39

annonymousse · 28/10/2024 19:30

I am no expert and this might not be appropriate but would she be willing to do a deed of variation to sign it over to the family. She might not even want an interest in the place.

That could be case, but I can’t see it happening for a lengthy time, she’s got used to coming across, it her home as far as she feels, and she’s just lost my dad…she’s a million miles from rational decisions right now …she probably wants things to continue in way they have for last few years since dad was in care home.
truth is I don’t know her that well, as they spent so much time out of country and last few years dads been on his own when I visited him . I don’t have any ability to feel like I can ask her outright, and certainly not at this stage. Hence why I posted…I can’t ask executors as it’s all very sensitive.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 28/10/2024 19:40

I think you need to just take a step back.

She has been left a life interest in the property until her death.

These things are relatively common.

She can use it as she wishes and if she dies then her share goes to whoever she leaves it to in her will.

Why assume that she won’t want to sell it now? Why would she want to come over here given your father is no longer here.

Why not talk to her about it?

You have no role anyway and seem angsty because just maybe you thought it was coming to you and your siblings.

If she does not maintain the home then there will be things the executors can do

pavementgerms · 28/10/2024 19:40

Your dad wanted her to be able to use it for the rest of her life, but for it to pass to you after she dies. She might be willing to end the trust in her lifetime, but if not, you will need to live with it and respect your DF's wishes.

Marshbird · 28/10/2024 19:42

Harassedevictee · 28/10/2024 19:36

@Marshbird from the sounds of it, it is a life interest trust.

You have way too many questions for them to be accurately addressed on this forum. I would strongly recommend your brother, as executor, gets legal advice.

In your shoes I would be getting my own legal advice and asking if there is anyway to “dissolve” the trust by everyone agreeing to selling the house and splitting the money. The will seems to provide for this.

thanks for that. I had hoped I was making a mountain from molehill and this is common and easy to implement. And MN would have some folks that could ease my potentially unnecessary worries.

Sounds like the questions are not unnecessary and so i will push with sibling to get legal advice about how it will work in practice.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 28/10/2024 19:43

Btw you can order a copy of the will online

Marshbird · 28/10/2024 19:55

Quitelikeit · 28/10/2024 19:43

Btw you can order a copy of the will online

Got a copy of will - that’s what prompted questions. It doesn’t say what would happen for instance if she was unable to care for house any longer…it doesn’t say a lot about the detail on how this arrangement will work…my sibling couldn’t answer my questions, they’d not thought of them re IHT impact, capital gains etc. hence why I posted.

as others have said, MN is not going to be able to give useful advice here as too complicated. Which does in fact sort of answer my question and confirm it’s a mess. So, thanks for all that answered, appreciate your thoughts. I can’t afford solicitor and will have to suck up whatever happens as it’s not something I have any say over, except as a final beneficiary if I live that long!

OP posts:
Harassedevictee · 28/10/2024 20:41

I wouldn’t say it’s a mess. It’s more that the IHT isn’t as straight forward as if it was husband and wife.

You are asking all the right questions and I would suggest getting an agreement in place. For example, Your DB should not have to deal with bills and running the house etc. it should be the life interest beneficiary.

HelloMyNameIsElderSmurf · 28/10/2024 20:51

OK a trust needs trustees - so who are the trustees?

This is not actually an uncommon situation, my own DB is a life renter in a house left to him in trust; he is responsible for most upkeep and keeping it in a reasonable condition, when he dies it will be sold and proceeds go to someone else (I am being very vague here: I know everyone thinks their situation is outing but mine is VERY outing).

Our trust has more than one trustee though, including a 'professional' trustee who is extremely helpful in understanding how the trust has been set up.

There must be a deed of trust and/or a letter of wishes for the trust as well.

The executors must not try and work through this themselves though, they need a solicitor who will be paid through the estate.

ShanghaiDiva · 28/10/2024 20:56

Quitelikeit · 28/10/2024 19:43

Btw you can order a copy of the will online

Only after probate has been granted.

Mindymomo · 30/10/2024 10:29

I think the easiest way is to sell the house and split the money equally, as your DD hasn’t put in writing who will pay for upkeep of house, council tax, utilities, insurance etc. Op you are right that you can claim double for inheritance tax for your DD and Mum. When your late father’s partner is next over, you all need to find out what she wants, I would think she would be jointly liable for running costs of the house, but you need proper legal advice which should be paid for by your late DD’s estate.

NeedingCoffee · 30/10/2024 10:40

Agreed with previous posters that you need advice from an accountant or solicitor with trust and estates knowledge. Any IHT due on the estate, which includes the value of the house, is going to have to be paid. If it can't be paid without selling the house then decisions will have to be taken. If no IHT is due, or there are other assets from which to pay it, then there is still a life interest (otherwise know as an IIP - interest in possession) trust which will need registration on TRS and possibly annual tax returns. The recipient of the IIP (your dad's partner) generally has all the obligations for the costs of the property whilst using their interest, so that alone might eventually persuade her to give it up, even if IHT doesn't necessitate it.

Flughafenkoenigin · 30/10/2024 10:58

I can see my poor elder sibling in his 80s still trying to manage to run a house in good order with a 90 year old woman. Dads effectively stuck him to her for the rest of her life.

Not necessarily. It's possible to resign as trustee, it's not slavery. Something similar happened to my cousin. Without his knowledge, a relative appointed him as a trustee in his will. Long story short, he eventually got pissed off with the way the person with the life interest was treating him and quit. Someone else was appointed as trustee after that.

Icedbear · 30/10/2024 11:09

Quitelikeit · 28/10/2024 19:40

I think you need to just take a step back.

She has been left a life interest in the property until her death.

These things are relatively common.

She can use it as she wishes and if she dies then her share goes to whoever she leaves it to in her will.

Why assume that she won’t want to sell it now? Why would she want to come over here given your father is no longer here.

Why not talk to her about it?

You have no role anyway and seem angsty because just maybe you thought it was coming to you and your siblings.

If she does not maintain the home then there will be things the executors can do

Yes, I don't think it's as complicated as you're making it, it's certainly not an unusual arrangement.

She is responsible for the maintenance and will have to face the problems that brings as she ages in the same way as any other elderly person does. Probably by selling it at some point. If your brother can't or doesn't want to do it in her absence, she'll need to employ someone else.

FrequentlyAskedQuestion · 30/10/2024 18:13

As far as I can see your Dad has left the house to you and your siblings, but with a life interest for her to live in it. Not uncommon.

So he is leaving the house to you, not her, and the extra £175k threshold should apply, and your Mum’s allowance added if appropriate.

Will your sibling, the executor, not accept help and assistance?

liz4change · 30/10/2024 18:32

Hi OP - this kind of arrangement is not a vanishingly rare one - as others have said it's a life interest - most often used if someone has remarried/re-partnered but ultimately wishes their children to benefit from the capital value of the house.
You sound like you are experiencing some very strong emotions about the arrangement- I can understand that especially if your DF didn't discuss his plans with the wider family.
It does sound like matters are complicated by the fact that your DF's partner lives elsewhere a good deal of the time.
It's worth contacting Citizens Advice who should be able to give impartial information about the practicalities of this, as well as the solicitors handling your DF's estate.
You've clearly visualised one set of possibilities- but do think of the others. She may not want the expense of maintaining two properties either now or at some future point, or may not want to live in the house at all.
I can appreciate it's difficult but it's also important to accept that this is what your DF opted to do and that wills are so difficult to challenge it is almost always best not to try and to devote effort to making things work.

Marshbird · 01/11/2024 21:14

Thanks to those that responded. Helpful to get your views.

OP posts:
Marshbird · 01/11/2024 21:22

HelloMyNameIsElderSmurf · 28/10/2024 20:51

OK a trust needs trustees - so who are the trustees?

This is not actually an uncommon situation, my own DB is a life renter in a house left to him in trust; he is responsible for most upkeep and keeping it in a reasonable condition, when he dies it will be sold and proceeds go to someone else (I am being very vague here: I know everyone thinks their situation is outing but mine is VERY outing).

Our trust has more than one trustee though, including a 'professional' trustee who is extremely helpful in understanding how the trust has been set up.

There must be a deed of trust and/or a letter of wishes for the trust as well.

The executors must not try and work through this themselves though, they need a solicitor who will be paid through the estate.

Ok, this is interesting…there is no deed of trust separately, just the vague wording of this will, and no expression of wishes has been found, or ledge with solicitor who was holding the will

there is no professional trustee. Just eldest sibling, and the beneficiary my DD partner. I’m concnered in reading stuff around how the trust will manage capital gains and this 10 year charge on IHT. I know sibling hasn’t got a clue and hates all the legal financial stuff so avoids it, and the partner only understand legal stuff in her country. I can’t make them take legal advice can I? As the potential beficifacary of the house after she dies, if I outlive her 😱do I have any say in them ensuring they get legal help as to how this will work. Will probate process make it clear what they need to do re transfer of assets, stamp duty, IHT capital gains and all that?

OP posts:
Harassedevictee · 01/11/2024 22:31

@Marshbird As I have said you have too many specific questions for this forum to answer.

WRT trustees I think the Executors either become the trustees or appoint the trustees if the will doesn’t name them.

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