Funerals - no-one can pay

[sosaad]

Very sadly my lovely mother in law died. Then, a few days later, suddenly, but not too unexpectedly, my father in law died.

My parents in law were very private people and never discussed finances. My husband (my MiL's son and stepson of FiL) has had chronic mental health problems and is now in a care home. Any close relatives, including me, live on a hand to mouth financial basis. Therefore, the problem of how we pay for two funerals has raised questions.

From what I understand, if no-one can pay for a funeral, then the local authority will provide a basic funeral. I also know that my husband would be able to claim for funeral expenses (we live separately), but I do not think that would cover two funerals or a joint one. I work, but have no savings. I am also not able to take out a loan.

My parents in law have a large house which I think they own fully, and this also has some land. However, no-one knows if a will was made or where it is. It is all a bit of a mess.

I am trying to sort things out, but could do with a little advice about how to sort out a funeral of some kind.

Thanks

How about ringing local solicitors to see if they have a will?

Sorry for your losses.

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate/if-theres-not-a-will

It will come from their estates. It's essential for whoever is next of kin to establish if there's any liquid assets and gain access to them with the death certificate, however if that isn't enough then it comes from the sale of the assets

If there is any cash at all, the bank can pay the funeral director directly. Legally the reasonable funeral costs have first call on the estate. When ddad died I just sent the bill to nat West and their bereavement team paid it out of his account.

You have missed that the step father did not survive 28 days after the death of his wife.

The intestate’s spouse or civil partner has to survive the intestate in order to take any benefit from his estate. For deaths before 1 January 1996 it was immaterial that the spouse survived by only a very short period. For deaths on or after 1 January 1996 a surviving spouse or civil partner is only entitled on intestacy if he or she has survived the deceased by at least 28 days - (Law Reform (Succession) Act 1995).

www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/inheritance-tax-manual/ihtm12123

Even if there was a will, most solicitors include a 28 day survivor clause (the spouse only gets the money if they survive 28 days). It’s aimed at things like air crashes where you can’t be sure who died first but it would also apply here.

@CandidHedgehog this is the second very informative post you have made in this thread. I was wondering why a 28 day survivorship existed. I suspect you may be legally qualified.

More recent wills are often placed on an index - if you can't find a will then it maybe possible to ask for a search of these indexes to enquire whether a will has been lodged.

You have missed that the step father did not survive 28 days after the death of his wife.
The intestate’s spouse or civil partner has to survive the intestate in order to take any benefit from his estate.

That still leaves the stepfather's own assets, which if he did not leave a will, will pass to his nearest blood relatives, not his stepson. Payment for his funeral should come out of his estate.

It's really important to establish what blood relatives stepFIL had.

Yes my next post explained that the OP doesn't even know who owned the house. It may have just been FIL.

Op firstly, condolences to you and your dh, it’s a horrible thing to deal with. If you haven’t already, make sure you register ever with the Tell us once service. Secondly, I hope everything goes well at the house. I’ve done this a few times and it’s really hard searching through peoples person belongings, so take your time once you’re there at the house with your support. To pay for the funeral, once you’ve found the bank paperwork pop in to them to see them with death certificates and then pass the funeral bills on to them.
Good luck 💐

If you're in Scotland you can apply for funeral support payment from social security Scotland.

I unfortunately had something very similar losing both parents in a couple of months of each other , my father funeral was paid half by him and half outright by me 4k then my mothers had to be paid all by me. 2.5k which I did not have upfront, I explained this right off the bat to a funeral provider and I kept the costs relatively low without comprising a lovely send off.
I was able to negotiate instalments to pay it off ( they weren't massively high and they allowed me to reduce the payments when I had got made redundant till I got a new job (

Yes, I've done this by getting a detailed invoice from the funeral director, and passing that to the bank who will then pay the invoice directly from the deceased person's account. That way you can hold the funeral before all the arrangements about wills, probate and so on take place, because those processes often don't happen very fast.

You can take funeral bill to their bank, provide death certificate and they'll release funds before Grant is obtained. Pretty much the only liability they'll release funds for apart from IHT

Please talk to a probate solicitor. You don’t have to pay. Just explain what has happened and you will be put through to someone and get basic advice. I was a probate solicitor and see so much bad advice given on Mumsnet. The money for the funerals will not come from the house. Have a look to see if there is any money stashed in the house. If there is money in the bank that can be released for the funeral. Funeral directors require paying fairly promptly. Otherwise your local authority will have information about public health funerals on their website and a contact number. They will seek to recoup the costs. I hope you find a good solicitor to steer you through this. Nothing is too difficult to sort out.

Yes. This should be relatively simple assuming they had say 20K to cover both funerals.
Look around house or in wallets to find which bank they used.
Go there with death cert and invoice from funeral director.
The bank should pay the funeral director from the deceased funds.
This has been my experience.
By the way whoever is registering the death get more certs than you think you will need.
I'd get 8 or 10.
It's much easier to get multiples when registering than later. And you often have to send them off somewhere.
All the best.

20k for two funerals? I think 10k each is far more than the average cost of a funeral and in this situation it appears there could be relatively few mourners and it could even be a joint one.

Thank you again for the very helpful information. My husband's stepfather has a sister and a niece. However, he died within a few days of MiL, certainly less than 28 days. My husband is not well, but he insists there was a will, and his mother told him where it was. I am going to the house tomorrow to begin the search.

The couple had at least one bank account, so we should be able to see if there is anything there.

I don't know if this is much help but my aunt and uncle died a few years ago within a week of each other, and a joint funeral was held. It was as good as it could have been and there was no mention of cutting corners etc , it was nice to be able to say goodbye together.

Interesting that the sister has not been in touch about the funeral for FIL, as closest relative. Does she know of DH illness and incapacity? Wonder if she's assuming you'll sort it all out and pay (which is a bit CF of her frankly, since you're not blood relation) or whether she has assumed she will be doing it all and hasn't thought to let you know this (which is kinda off when you/DH are the ones sorting the funeral for MIL). Maybe she's struck numb by grief.

I think his son would be the closest relative.

The precise cost of the funerals is a detail. I was making a point about how they are paid.
I took a wide margin as some people have no idea how much they can cost.
The point is the deceaseds estates pay for the funerals if there are sufficient funds.

The FIL doesn’t have a son? The OP says he has a sister and a niece.

Just a quick update. We went to my parent in law's house today, with my step-father in law's niece and husband. After a great deal of searching (it is amazing how much paper we collect in half a lifetime), we found two wills. They seem to be reverse wills: one stating that if my husband's stepfather dies, his estate will go to his wife, and if she predeceases him, the estate goes to my husband absolutely. My mother in law's will states more of less the same (if she dies, everything goes to her husband, and if he dies first, it all goes her son (my husband). We could find no other wills. Both wills were dated the year after the couple married, about 49 years ago. The bank or bank trust is named as executor in each will.

I now think I have to contact their banks, contact the funeral director and of course, contact the bank that is executor for the will. My husband is not really in a fit state to take on burden, but I will act as his advocate. The couple do appear to have some money in their bank accounts, and this should be enough to pay for the funerals.

At least it's clear then and no arguing about what happens. Yes contact the executors, if the company are still in existence they'll deal with it all and their fee comes from the estate.

You'll need to organise the funeral, the funeral directors will help with the process. My friend had to bury a relative recently and had to take 50% funeral costs onto a credit card because the funeral directors wouldn't go ahead without this deposit, then the bank paid out for the entire funeral costs about 2wks after the funeral, with the funeral directors invoice and the funeral directors then refunded the 50% deposit to my friend. It cost £9k in total.

Also you need to register the death and get copies of the death certificate. Companies won't accept photocopies often they want proper official copies, so get them at the time of registration because its cheaper. Ten is usually enough. Something like £11 each at the time or £35 each later.

Depending on your closeness to neice/sister it might be worth reassuring them that although DH has been left everything he'll be happy for them to have mementoes after probate is sorted. This so they don't seethe at being left nothing, if you're not close. You don't want the hassle of them contesting the will because they think it's all unfair, even if they don't get anywhere it's still unnecessary upset and delays probate. If you're close they'll already know the type of people you are so maybe nothing needs saying. It's important to specify after everything sorted because if they're grabby you don't want them going in and helping themselves to whatever before you/DH have had a chance to see what's there, decide what to do with it all and also lots of things will be from his mum not their uncle/brother.