Wondering if anyone here knows about litigation?

[DumbledoresGirl]

Long story and I am too upset to go into too many details, but to try and explain:

3 years ago we bought a house with extension potential. It is very old and has been added to repeatedly over the last 200 years so a very complex building but we wanted it as it had outbuildings which we wanted to convert into further accommodation.

Employed an architect to draw up plans. Architect was useless - completely failed to understand the building. Dh ended up doing most of the plans before they were submitted for planning permission. We paid architects a fee that literally ran into £1000s. Were extremely pissed off with their efforts and declined their bid to project manage our build.

Planning permission obtained. Went to someone else for building regulations, which we also obtained.

Finally had enough money to start project and managed to get a builder, electrician and plumber on board (no mean feat in itself).

Builder was going to start on 7th April but we were away so we agreed a start date of 21st April (yesterday).

Builder then had to delay that start date but yesterday we had a man out from the electricity board as our meter needed to be re-sited. In the course of that man's visit, he noticed we had an electricity pole and cable about 1.5 metres from the outbuilding we are planning to convert. Apparently, electricity cables must be minimum 4.6 metres from a new build/conversion. Man said it might take 12 months to re-site cables. As he was saying this, our builder was ringing us to arrange a new start date.

But now our plans have fallen around our ears. We cannot start a single part of our extensive plans as they are all inter-dependent on each other. We might have to delay the work for 12 months by which time our planning permission might have expired. It was the architect's job to tell us about the power line and advise us it would need moving. He did not do this.

The question is: could we/ should we think about litigation?

Dh is desperately trying to find some way round this problem so our extension can go ahead as planned this spring, but all I can see is that our dreams of 3 years' duration have been ruined. Anyone got any advice?

I know there are worse problems than this, but I am still in shock and feel absolutely gutted.

OK yes sorry, ludicrously long OP and obviously no-one wants to read it. I can't blame you!

I just feel so upset about this and was hoping someone would talk about it to me.

I feel for you.
The whole planning/building thing can be a nightmare.

Firstly, you need to check that the man from the electricity company was absolutely right. Surely it would not always be possible to resite an electricity pole.

Who are you thinking of litigting against? The architects?

I would go see a Solicitor, many do a free half hour interview and they could advise you wehther you have a case.

I would also try to get advice from a different (decent!) architect/planner type person to see if there is anything you can do.

I can fully understand why you're gutted DG

Yes, thinking of suing the architects for failing to tell us about this problem. But on the other hand, we have not really got enough money to see the whole project through so I don't want to risk any on solicitors fees. I guess it is just an instinctive reaction to want to kick out at the people we see as responsible for dropping us in this shit.

Meanwhile dh is trying to find a way round the problem: moving the pole and overhead cable, or burying under the garden, etc. Both are possibilities but both will take time and money and are dependent on other people (neighbours and the local council who own the land the offending pole is on).

Thanks for replying. I guess there is nothing much anyone here on MN can do (finally! a problem MN can't help with!) but it helps to sound off about it.

Can you not ask the building regs people? Sometimes people are mistaken (like the electricity guy) so ring your buildings regs guy.

Or give your local electricity company's switchboard a ring and ask them the question.

Both would be relatively painless and free before embarking on any other action.

Fizzy - I don't think the electricity man is mistaken. It seems he is often having to tell people their prospective builds are too close to a line. He gave us several examples of other cases he was involved with. Dh has been trying to contact the necessary person from the eletricity board to start the process of getting quotes for moving the line.

smallwhitecat - I think that is half my worry. The way I see it, the architect is at fault for not telling us about this, but it would always have been our responsibility to pay for the cost of moving the line. So we are not going to incur additional costs there. OTOH, a lot of people (builder, electrician, plumber etc) have been inconvenienced because they will now not be able to do the work, and dh said we could sue for loss of amenity (?) if our build is substantially delayed. I don't know anything about this sort of thing which is why I was hoping there would be a solicitor out there who dealt with this kind of problem.

What reason did he give DumbledoresGirl? We have a substation in our front garden, 3m from our house - and apparently that's fine - so what's the problem with the pole? Are they saying it's a safety issue of some sort?

Could you start the work on the extension, but not complete/sign it off as complete until the pole has been moved?

I've had a quick look on the internet and cannot see anything about this - so I wouldn't take it as gospel to be honest. Phone your local planning office and ask them - they should know. Also ask your electricity company to put it in writing - and/or to quote the regulation concerned. I would carry on with your building work in the meantime.

My SIL built her house right next to an electricity cable - a honking great thing it is too! It is not even 1m from the house never mind 4.6m. Please double check what the electricity guy said.

Wow, you are giving me hope...

The reason given was there is a new regulation that all new or extended properties must be at least 4.6 m from the power line - safety reasons. Existing properties don't come under the regulation.

We can't continue with the build until this is resolved (start the build I mean) as the man said it could take as much as a year to resolve . If we build with the power line still there, the guy who checks things have been done properly (I forget their job title) could have the whole thing pulled down.

Don't panic about PP as well it lasts 5 years from obtaining it.

Planning permission has now been reduced so you usually have to start building within 3 years of the date of the planning permission but this shouldn't make much of a difference.

Basically, you would probably be able to sue for the difference in the cost of doing the work in 12 months time minus the cost of doing the work now, so if the costs massively increased as a result of the delay, you could claim that bit. Also, if you were planning to let the extension out or something you could also claim for that loss but I don't think you can claim for loss of amenity.

Also found this setting out minimum distances - haven't looked at it in detail but it looks useful!

www.dtei.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/20973/buildingnearpowerlines.pdf

That document is from the Australian Government so wouldn't apply here - although it's possible there is some new regulation here. But if that's the case then surely the local council would be aware, you can't just rely on electricity company employees happening to come round and notice.

If you want to look at suing your architect you would need to quote the relevant legislation that they should have been aware of. So that really has to be your first step - phone your electricity company and get the specific details and then take it from there. I would be very interested to know why such legislation has been brought in, as we have had discussions with our local electricity company about moving the substation. They are happy to move it providing we a) pay for it, and b) provide them with alternative land on which to site it. Working on it, but new regulations might help us - whilst appreciating they're not helping you...

To be honest I don't know if I would advise suing the architect. You would have to prove negligence and or breach of contract. It will be costly, long, draining and it will not solve your practical problem. IF you win, you will only win money and possbibly not recover all of your legal costs.

A project like yours is already draining. Do you really want to add the stress of litigation. I think I would have questioned the architect fees at the time though and possbily not paid in full.

Also as the others said, check what the electicity guy said.

Found this article from 2007, which is talking about power lines - ie pylons, which states

"The report stops short of specifically recommending a ban on new homes and schools within 200 feet of power lines, or vice versa, which could wipe up to "£2 billion or more" off property prices and limit housing developments. However, it states: "We urge government to make a clear decision on whether to implement this option or not."

Now I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about this had it been brought in as new legislation, so my guess would be that the electricity company might not want you to build closer than 4.6m so that they can maintain it more easily, but I doubt there's any actual legislation.

What sort of power line is it you have adjacent to you anyway - a small domestic type thingy or a pylon?

Let us know what you find out...

Thanks so much everyone. You are all marvellous. Yet again MN comes up trumps.

Needahand, I agree completely with your post. It puts my feelings in a nutshell. Right now, all I want is my building work done and I am not interested in getting involved in anything more complicated which may well leave us out of pocket. I think dh and I thought of litigation more as an instinctive backlash reaction.

I am awaiting dh to come home from work. I know he has been in touch with the electricity board today but was waiting for a specific person to call him back. I am hoping he has done that and we know a bit more.

Cosette (Les Mis fan?) - the line in question is one of those domestic thingies on a wooden pole, not a pylon. It is so close to the corner of our outbuilding that even if it could stay there once the building was converted, there would be a problem with erecting scaffolding to do the building work.

You have given me a lot to consider. Thank you.

Oh just read your article Cosette. No no, we are not talking pylons and cancer risks here! It is a telegraph pole type thing and the safety issue was being able to lean out the window and touch the line, nothing to do with radiation.

Don't even think about litigation - it is a nightmare but you probably haven't lost out financially too much - apart from the dodgy advice.

What I would do if I were you is send a copy of the plans to the architect together with the details as to how the plans were not adequate because they failed to take the electricity thingy into account and ask them to refund their fees.

DumbledoresGirl - The department in the electricity company is the "wayleaves" department. I used to work for Npower (boo hiss) and just contacted my mate who had a wooden domestic electricity pole in her garden and needed it moved to do her extension.

We think that it is to do with being able to touch the cables from an upstairs window so electricity companies all have their own regulations re distance.

You should be able to get the pole moved if you have room to resite it.

I remember we used to have to remove the cables from people's eves when they were having their sofits and facias done and then reconnect. We always did it before the scaffolding went up so that some poor unfortunate scaffolder didn't electrocute himself

Also agree with Needahand - I wouldn't persue the litigation side, it is hell on earth and very very stressful.

Good idea Quattro, but I reckon the letter would be consigned to the bin. Worth going through RIBA though?

Fizzy, yes that was the point - being able to touch the line. Although when I suggested we resited the window so that it was not on the wall facing the line, I was told that was not relevant and the line still had to be more than 4.6 m from the building.

The pole in question is not on our land btw. It is on council land. The electricity man said that would mean asking the environment agency if we could move the pole.

Fizzy, any idea of how much it cost your friend to have the pole moved?

Okay I know your working relationship with these people is not good, but just about every and any professional partnership will handle these things quickly, reach a settlement without prejudice and move on to avoid expensive litigation. They'll want to settle, you want to settle, should be able to get to some meeting of minds ...

I hope so Quattro. We are going to try and get hold of the exact legislation we think the architects overlooked and present them with this evidence. I really do not have any intention of suing, but I can't bear to think of them just getting away with shoddy practice.