Elderly parents, care home and protecting money

[springtome]

I would really appreciate it if anyone could confirm my thoughts/understanding so I can guide my parent.

One parent in care home with dementia (PD) and the other lives in their marital home, independently but with help from adult DC.

We have recently taken steps to protect their half of the house being left to their spouse to reduce how much goes on care home fees if they pass first.

We do understand that if the independent parent (IP) ends up in a care home then all of this is irrelevant.

I want to understand how cash in bank may be protected.

IP has saving in own name. We know they are safe. They also have a joint savings account with I think maybe £60,000 in (does anyone know if it could be that much and the council won't touch?) plus a current account where both pensions go into. PD has to pay just over £1,000 a month for their care. This comes out of the current account where both pensions are paid into. There is around £8,000 in there give or take.

It is my understanding that if IP passes first, any money held in a joint account will automatically pass to DP and not go to their estate.

Can we move half of the money in the savings account(s) in both names, into IP own account now or will it be seen as a deprivation of assets? We wouldn't move more than half as half is DP. This is my main question as I don't know the answer to that. I could ring the council again to find out but trying to have as much knowledge first.

Final question. IP has recently found out that DP has another account in their name only which has just under £8,000 in. Can IP use this money to pay care homes before using joint money, as it is DP money and care home bills are addressed to them? If they can, how do they set this up as DP is not capable anymore. If they completed a DD form, would it be spotted that the signature isn't DP? Would that matter as their spouse is handling their affairs?

Thanks if you got through all that! We really don't want to do anything illegal but also DP worked hard all their life to save and would be devastated if they understood how much of their money was being spent on their care now (they have very low quality of life).

Does anyone have financial power of attorney for the parent in a home? So much easier to manage these situations if so.

General advice to anyone reading this: EVERYONE should set up health and financial power of attorney for themselves while they are able to. Being married is not enough by itself!

Half of joint savings will be deemed to belong to the parent in care

Yes we arranged this last week for IP but it's too late for DP.

As soon as our DC are adults, we will set up our POA!

But does that mean we can move the other half to IP account as that is there share? This is what we don't know.

Is the care home £1000 a month? Or did you mean a week?

Deprivation of Assets | Age UK

You are right to take into account the risk that your local authority will consider whether deprivation of assets has occurred particularly as the independent parent already has care needs being covered by family support. You need to speak with someone like Age UK.

I've been PoA for a few relatives in the past. It would make sense to set up a new sole bank account for IP, and have their pension paid into there, plus household bills etc. Keep the existing account for DP's pension to be paid into.

IMO it would be reasonable to put half of the joint savings in a new sole savings account for IP, again keeping the joint savings account for DP's use. Splitting the existing balance in the joint current account would probably also be reasonable, as long as it hasn't mostly been accrued from DP's income (e.g. if they have a much higher pension, they should probably have a higher percentage of the current balance).

Has DP had a financial assessment done? This should establish their current savings and assets. They might be eligible for a deferred payment scheme.

In general, make sure you are documenting what you / IP are doing so it is clear that you are following the rules and being fair, whilst also protecting IP's assets.

No that is their contribution a month. It's basically their pension income.

Thanks for this, yes they have had a financial assessment but IP handled it. We offered to be there but they said no. We are a little worried they didn't fully understand what is being asked and there is a chance they didn't mention all money - they have form for not listening eg Dr asks are you taking any medicine, they answer no despite taking statins and other meds!

We also know they have premium bonds. We have no idea how much they have other than they are in both names as they win regularly and cheques come in both names. I suspect IP won't have mentioned this money as I don't think they think of it as savings.

Age UK is a good shout, thanks for that I will look to see what advise we can get from there.

@Gaggley yes PD was higher earner as IP was SAHP and so they earned majority of the money and therefore have occupational pension but IP only state pension. The plan was though that the pensions supported both of them, not just the working partner.

I agree that separating costs and bank accounts could be a good move, not least because it will make things easier when/if PD passes.

You can't jointly own Premium Bonds, they can be in one name only. Are the cheques interest cheques from something else?

No I meant they have some each. Some cheques come in her name, some in his. We have no idea how much they have between them and in what proportion they are solid. We just think they have lots because they 'win' a number of times every year.

They could possibly have as much as £50k each in premium bonds, the maximum, if they're receiving cheques for the winnings (most people without the maximum would just reinvest, especially small wins)

Also £1000 per month seems tiny, our relative in a private home, due to high assets, pays £6.5k a month!

Yes we have heard that some in our area pay £4,000 a month. If IP goes first then they will increase what he pays by using the house and savings.

£1k a month is very low. Is PD receiving any funding from the council? If so, I'd be worried that not all assets have been declared. You can't have savings over £23,250 or own your own home. (Though you can set up a deferred payment scheme with the council to avoid having to sell straightway.)

www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/money-work-and-benefits/paying-for-your-own-care-self-funding/

I rang the council myself to check that there was no debt building up in the background to be paid when house sold and told no. Unless IP passes before PD then the contribution stays as it is. I don't know for sure what they have except what is in their current account and this unknown account in PD name as I was shown those statements recently. Everything else is guesswork based on things we have been told/seen.

I really worry that IP hasn't been clear with the council though, not through deliberate deception just through not listening and not understanding the consequences. I have seen them answer similar questions a number of times incorrectly for example, I had to help them ring their bank about something and they had to answer security questions. One was how many products do you hold with this bank - I rephrased and asked do they have other accounts with this bank or just this current account. Told just this current account. They failed security so we were passed up. When asked the same question again they said current account and an ISA! This sort of mix up happens all the time so could well have happened when they had the financial assessments.

You can pay care home from money in an account of DP first as it's for their benefit, before using money from their joint account. Once that's been used you'd have to switch to the joint savings account. I believe the house would not be sold to pay towards care fees until the death of the IP. The IP would not not be forced out of their home.

Have recently been through similar with my grandparents
Both had (have) complete mental capacity)

When Grandfather went into care home
All money was split in half and new accounts were created.
all shares was sold etc (easier while everyone is alive)
all utilities etc were moved in my grandmothers name.
(everything had been joint forever)

Then for a while my Grandfather had to pay his own care home fees (from his own new account) and they could NOT force the sale of the house because my Grandmother was living in it.
He was assessed as being eligable for nursing home care, which the NHS / council (not sure which) funded (up to a certain amount) and he took a bed in a private care home, but they had 2 beds for the council / NHS funded people so it didnt cost him anything.

Then they changed the house to where they both own half (tenants in common or something?) and my Grandfather changed his will to leave his half of the house to his children (in trust), so that if my grandmother requires care and needs to use the value in the house, only half can be used as the other half is no longer hers.
He also left all his cash to his children (not his wife) as this reduced the amount of cash she has if / when she needs to pay for her own care.

@redbluegreenyellowbrown thank you for this. It's very helpful.

spring to me

Just reading your posts again.

Can I suggest setting up POA now.

my children are still children but we have just re done our wills and also done POA (both medical and financial)

DH and I are both POA for each other, but in the event we are both incapable I have appointed bott my Mum and sister, jointly and severally for me, and DH has appointed his Mum and his brother, again jointly and severally for him.

Once our children are old enough we will change it to them.

But meanwhile, if something happens to us both, our finances and health choices can be managed by trusted relations, which would make a traumatic challenging time that bit easier.

Having been in the position (with financial but NOT medical POA for my Dad; we thought we had both, but we didnt), where i had to argue with my fathers GP for more than an hour, to let him stay in his nursing home and die (rather than go to hospital and have a small chance he might survive a bit longer [he was terminally ill with early onset dementia and was already unable to control any muscles except to swallow]) I would never wish any of my relatives to have to have the same arguement about me, where their choices were different to medical choices.

Get POA sorted while you can.... you never know when it might be necessary, and apparently being married is not enough (I thought it was but my solicitor told me other wise)

Thanks for this. My oldest is 18 next year so it isn't long to wait but I do get what you mean. We were discussing with one of my brothers last night so maybe we should just do it now.

We have our new wills but still haven signed them. I need to get some neighbours round tomorrow and get them to witness them tomorrow.

I thought half of pensions can be allocated to a spouse for living costs and the other half goes towards care home?