New Universal Credit claim - can anyone help with a question about deductions for overpaid Housing Benefit please?

[RiverHeron]

A friend has recently received her first Universal Credit payment of £722.04 for the assessment period 5/1 - 4/2/24. This was made up of £500.02 housing element, the standard allowance of £368.74 and carers element of £185.86, minus her carers allowance of £332.58 for the month. Her next assessment period is 5/2-4/3/24.

She has now received a letter and note on her UC journal to say that she has to pay back Housing Benefit received at the same time as Universal Credit, and this will be deducted in instalments, starting from her next UC payment. The figure to pay back is given as £223.15. There is no information about what the instalments will be.

She informed Housing Benefit on or about 5/1 that she had made a new UC claim. She was told that she had done everything she needed to do by informing them, that they (HB) would also be notified by UC, and that she would not have to pay back the first 2 weeks of HB paid after making her UC claim.

She has tried to work out how the figure of £223.15 has been reached, I have tried to help but I don't have that experience or knowledge, she has left messages on her journal and phoned UC, but has still not received an answer.

This is the HB she has received since 5/1 and the dates it reached her bank account. The usual fortnightly amount was £230.78 and I think the lower 2 figures were after deductions were newly made for her young adult severely disabled DC. The HB amounts were fortnightly (while UC amounts are monthly).
HB: 8/1 £230.78, 22/1 £176.48 and 6/2 £194.58.

The 8/1 HB payment went to pay the rent for 4 weeks due on 15/1, (put together with a previous HB payment received 2 weeks before). The UC housing element received on 11/2 paid the rent due on 15/2.

Can anyone explain how the figure to pay back £223.15 has been reached please? Is that the total she has to pay back or will she have to pay back any more? Her concern is that 2 HB payments reached her bank account during the assessment period 5/1 - 4/2, and the third during the next assessment period of 5/2 - 4/3.

She fully understands that she will have to pay back some HB, but was advised that she wouldn't have to pay back 2 weeks of it, and just wants to make sure the amounts are correct and to know what to expect. I don't understand it and the UC team aren't helping her at the moment.

TIA

If she claimed UC on 05/01 then her HB run-on would be 05/01-18/01. Therefore any HB paid for a period covering from 19/01 onwards would be overpaid...

So 12.60 x3 + 194.58 = £232.38

Oh I read your overpayment figure wrong... Hmmm not sure, but I'm working on the basis 3 days of HB overpaid within the award on 22/01 plus the entirety of what was paid on 05/02?

Abit of a tricky one. I think she will need to call the housing benefit department to get some answers.

Thanks for that, @jadey1991 . I will suggest it. So far she has tried UC as they are the ones now dealing with her claim and asking for the money back.

Thanks for trying to help, @8dayweek . I can see why you used that calculation. I couldn't get the figures to make sense either when I played around with them, but then I don't know the rules UC use when working out what HB needs to be payed back and when.

It would be good if UC just bothered to explain this to my friend, rather than just ignoring her. How is she to know if the £223.15 is right? It's left her worrying too that she also might have to pay back £194.58 because it arrived in the next assessment period, as well as the £223.15 already asked for after the first assessment period. All this at the same time as coping with being an incredibly hardworking and pretty exhausted unpaid family carer and having to manage with a drop in income on UC.

Your friend should contact the Local Authority who assessed and paid her Housing Benefit claim before she moved onto UC.

They may not know why DWP are telling her there is an HB overpayment. But they did the calculations for the claim so if she gives them the relevant dates they may be able to explain something!

@RiverHeron can I ask if its actually UC asking for the money back. Reason I ask is because I've had an overpayment before and housing benefit were taking it out of my UC each month

It'll be the local Council who have informed UC of the amount that's overlapped and handed it to them for recovery - so they'll definitely be able to explain it (and how it's been calculated).

If UC receive the information before the first AP has ended they can apply the overlap and immediately recover from first AP (so no ongoing recovery and it's immediately offset in the same period in which it was received).

If UC don't get the information until after the first AP has ended it just gets sent to DWP Debt Management to recover gradually from on-going UC.

Thanks for the advice everyone. The LA has now been contacted but said that they didn't ask UC to reclaim the HB and they also couldn't throw any light on why UC has asked for that exact amount or the way in which UC worked it out.

Why ever UC can't just reply to my friend via the journal with their workings out, I honestly don't know - or just include them in the overpayment letter in the first place. We all know that, with the best will in the world, mistakes are made. It may well be right but she just wants to understand it and to be sure that the amount is correct, ideally before it is deducted. She also wants to know if that is the end of it or whether they will be deducting any more. It's not unreasonable to want to know that.

The Council are - quite frankly - lying, they would have provided the figure on the MGP1 Form they send across to UC. It may well be automated, but it's definitely "their" figure.

UC won't be able to tell you, because they don't process HB and have no access to the local Council's systems / calculations / P&P cycles etc.

Can't help with an explanation on figures, but I can advise that UC won't take the whole amount back in one go. They normally like a figure of around £50 a month to pay back an over payment. If this is too much for your friend, she must ring or leave a note in her journal and say its causing her 'financial hardship' and they should reduce the amount each month. Good luck!

If she got the notification via Letter on the Journal after her first UC Award it'll be recovered via future UC payments. The maximum deduction is restricted to 25% of the Standard Allowance (circa £92.18 per month, assuming they are over 25). She can contact Debt Management to agree an affordable rate before deductions start on 0800 916 0647 or use the website...

www.gov.uk/repay-manage-benefit-owed

I've seen the letter now and it says she has 'been paid more UC than (she is) entitled to and this will now be taken back. You were overpaid £223.15 from 5/1 - 4/2/24. This is because you have received both HB and UC. We will take this money back in instalments. Check your next statement to see what the repayment amount is.'

This makes it sound like they are taking back UC, but as she informed HB immediately when she made the UC claim, and as UC/DWP also put a stop notice on her HB claim from 6/1 (according to the HB person), and as her UC claim/assessment period starts from 5/1, then it sounds like it's the HB she was overpaid - if that matters. Unless UC are treating the HB as income?

Interesting. She said the HB person was completely adamant he couldn't help and she had to contact UC (yet again) to ask for an explanation. He said HB records showed an overpayment about £20 less than UC are intending to take so he couldn't explain the UC figure either. He said HB would either send her an invoice or ask UC/DWP to recover it. This has led to her worrying that she will be charged twice for the same money, once by UC and once by HB!

Honestly, between UC/DWP and HB, it seems like she's banging her head against a brick wall. Not what an already stretched and stressed 24/7 carer needs.

Thanks. When she rang DWP Debt Management they said the deduction would be about £92 a month. That seems a lot from not a huge UC payment of about £222 a month once the rent is paid.

When someone claims UC, basically any Debts / prior Overpayments go over to DWP Debt Management for recovery.

It could be that HB had an overpayment recovery built into it - hence why figures are seeming off.

i.e. You could be awarded £100 HB per week, but have an overpayment of £300 for an earlier period in your HB claim. The Council may be recovering the overpayment from the on going award - so the recipient is getting £95 HB per week paid to them and £5 per week is servicing their "debt".

Once UC is claimed, HB have no further award from which to recover that Overpayment - so it's passed to DWP Debt Management for recovery.

If she's got some old HB Letters they might give an indication if they were adjusting / offsetting a prior Overpayment from the on-going award.

Thanks for that gov.uk link and information @8dayweek

In short, it's a bit of a fucking minefield... Sorry, I know that's not helpful.

That is actually very helpful, 8dayweek - to hear it called out for what it is. I honestly don't know how most people are meant to cope with it, understand it and navigate it.