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Original poster

Who owes who?

24 replies

Cantdonumbers · 07/07/2023 19:55

I have been on MN for years but have name changed for this - and the name says it all. I am terrible with numbers (it actually has a name, dyscalculia).

I have also changed all the identifying detail because nobody except me and "Tom" knows about this transaction so I can't ask anyone IRL.

John has a car for sale at £100 and is desperate to get rid of it
Tom would like the car but has no money. He would be doing John a favour to buy it
I am John's partner and I lent Tom the money to buy the car, John doesn't know this
Tom paid John and took the car

Tom has signed a contract to repay the £100 to me when he can. I thought he was mathematically literate but now I have doubts.

Does he really owe me anything? Do I owe John/does John owe me?

By the way, if John owes me I'm not going to say anything to him, but of course I will tell Tom and tear up the contract.

I feel terrible now (and stupid), please help (it's more than £100).

OP posts:
ZoChan · 07/07/2023 19:58

Yes he owes you the money.

whiteroseredrose · 07/07/2023 19:59

Tom owes you the money

ZoChan · 07/07/2023 20:00

Posted too soon.

Yes he owes you the money. Currently you have nothing to show for your £100 as you are not the new owner of the car. Ensure he sticks to his repayment plan, or he will get a free car.

BelindaBears · 07/07/2023 20:01

Yes. It’s like if Tom borrowed the money from the bank to buy the car from John. He’d still need to repay the bank. You are the bank.

MissConductUS · 07/07/2023 20:02

You made a loan to Tom. John and his car have nothing to do with you. Tom owes you the money.

tribpot · 07/07/2023 20:05

I think it would only get confusing if John gave you the money that Tom gave him. Then in effect you would have been paid back already.

shiningstar2 · 07/07/2023 20:05

Tom owes you the money. The money Tom paid John with was not his own ...it was yours...so now Tom owes you the money he borrowed from you. If this doesn't happen you are the only one who loses out. Tom has the car. John has the money for the car from Tom but that money was yours. He didn't pay for the car with his own money. You need to be repaid by Tom.

Honeysuckle16 · 07/07/2023 20:11

Tom owes you the money. However, by stating he should make repayment “when he can”, you’ve opened up a scenario of Tom never having to repay you. Tom just has to argue that he can’t make payments for the foreseeable future to avoid ever paying you.

You must get Tom to sign an updated contract stating exactly what he’ll pay you and when, even if it’s only a few pounds a week. That way, the contract is enforceable in law.

Nicetiesandwhatnot · 07/07/2023 20:16

To me the issue is the wording,"will pay you back when they can" . It's totally non specific. Is it a lot of money op?

MissConductUS · 07/07/2023 20:21

Don't hold your breath waiting for your 100 quid.

Overthebow · 07/07/2023 20:21

Tom owes you the money. It's nothing to do with John.

Overthebow · 07/07/2023 20:22

why did you give Tom more than £100 when the car was on sale for £100?

AdaColeman · 07/07/2023 20:28

Tom owes you the money.
You should have set a firm final date by which Tom had to have paid you back the money.

As a life lesson "neither a borrower nor a lender be".
But if you can't follow that, then only ever lend money that you can afford to lose, because that is what will probably happen!

WeeTreat · 07/07/2023 20:31

Overthebow · 07/07/2023 20:22

why did you give Tom more than £100 when the car was on sale for £100?

OP is using the £100 car as an example. It could really be £500 for a guitar, she doesn't want to identify herself by stating the real amount or what it was for.

HunterHearstHelmsley · 07/07/2023 20:37

John being your partner is irrelevant, he is nothing to do with this.

You've loaned Tom the money to buy a car. Tom used the money to buy said car. Tom needs to pay you back.

Where or who he bought the car from doesn't matter.

Is Tom not wanting to return the money?

toochesterdraws · 07/07/2023 20:41

A has a car for sale.
B buys it.
C lends B the money.

B needs to repay C.

HunterHearstHelmsley · 07/07/2023 20:42

toochesterdraws · 07/07/2023 20:41

A has a car for sale.
B buys it.
C lends B the money.

B needs to repay C.

Exactly.

No added relationship complications.

Imagine C is a bank, C would never have to repay A.

Original poster
Cantdonumbers · 07/07/2023 23:14

Wow, thank you all so much for your unanimous opinions. I didn't expect anyone to have responded so quickly.

Tom hasn't said he won't repay the money, I just suddenly doubted myself because I know I've made stupid mistakes with numbers in the past. For me it was like one of those logic problems on the 1% club and the more I thought about it the more confused I got.

The contract is tighter than I implied. He is waiting for probate to go through when he will get an inheritance. The contract says he will pay then. And I will know when that happens.

The only reason John doesn't know is that he believes "never a borrower or a lender be" and he would have objected to what I did - but it was in his best interests. Not a car.

Thank you - now I can go to bed and not worry that I have conned Tom into signing the contract. I know - I was being ridiculous, and thank you also for not saying that. My faith in MN is restored after reading so many nasty unnecessary comments on other threads.

OP posts:
Original poster
Cantdonumbers · 07/07/2023 23:27

I've just re-read the comments. I don't know how to do quotes properly, but @tribpot said:
"I think it would only get confusing if John gave you the money that Tom gave him. Then in effect you would have been paid back already.

But surely even if John did give me the money, Tom would still have got the car for nothing? So then he would owe John?

OP posts:
AngryBirdsNoMore · 07/07/2023 23:31

Cantdonumbers · 07/07/2023 23:27

I've just re-read the comments. I don't know how to do quotes properly, but @tribpot said:
"I think it would only get confusing if John gave you the money that Tom gave him. Then in effect you would have been paid back already.

But surely even if John did give me the money, Tom would still have got the car for nothing? So then he would owe John?

You’re over complicating it.

Forget the car and forget John. You lent Tom £100; Tom owes you £100.

FishOnAPlane · 07/07/2023 23:35

Ensure he sticks to his repayment plan, or he will get a free car.

If he doesn’t pay he wouldn’t just get a free car, he will have had op’s money and a free car!

Tom needs to pay you op. No ifs and buts.

Testina · 10/07/2023 00:33

“Forget the car and forget John. You lent Tom £100; Tom owes you £100.”

@AngryBirdsNoMore is spot on with this.

However, if I were John and found out, I wouldn’t be happy. On the face of it, what you do with Tom isn’t John’s business, but you’ve seriously muddied the waters on that, given it revolves around his car. So John needed money and you’ve found a sneaky way of giving it to him, knowing he wouldn’t want to borrow from you? I’d be raging at that.

Hitchens · 10/07/2023 09:40

Cantdonumbers · 07/07/2023 23:14

Wow, thank you all so much for your unanimous opinions. I didn't expect anyone to have responded so quickly.

Tom hasn't said he won't repay the money, I just suddenly doubted myself because I know I've made stupid mistakes with numbers in the past. For me it was like one of those logic problems on the 1% club and the more I thought about it the more confused I got.

The contract is tighter than I implied. He is waiting for probate to go through when he will get an inheritance. The contract says he will pay then. And I will know when that happens.

The only reason John doesn't know is that he believes "never a borrower or a lender be" and he would have objected to what I did - but it was in his best interests. Not a car.

Thank you - now I can go to bed and not worry that I have conned Tom into signing the contract. I know - I was being ridiculous, and thank you also for not saying that. My faith in MN is restored after reading so many nasty unnecessary comments on other threads.

Is this a contract you drafted yourself? To be honest unless you are prepared to pursue the debt via the courts it doesn't really matter what the contract says. A contract is only useful if you have a way of enforcing it.

TheSeaDoesntKnowMyName · 10/07/2023 10:03

these are 2 different transactions

You loaned money to one person
-----------
a person bought your partners car

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