pip tribunals

[shrop]

Hi,
Im having a real issue , my pip tribunal was adjourned, and i was told that it had been recorded by hmcts staff in the room, btw im in England, hmcts seem to be extremely reluctant to release the audio, BUT heres the question for those that have been through a pip tribunal , did they tell you it was being recorded?
I have other questions connected to this but would love to know from an expert or 1st hand exp whether it was , or they do record it , even without telling you they are
Tia
J

I've been to a few tribunals, I don't remember being told but I presumed that all proceedings in a court would be (civil or criminal). I've had one adjourned as they requested previous dla notes - it was a transfer to pip. It only lasted a few minutes before being adjourned.

Why would you need the recording? The only reason I would have thought you'd need it is if it went to Appeal on a point of law?

I recorded my pip assessment, it lasted around 2 hrs but didn't need it as they changed their decision at mr stage.

ill try and explain, i've become a bit of a record everything freak, so i asked to record my phone pip assessment which was ok'd by the guy , it transpired i mistakenly deleted half of it Dohhhh, anyway ten mins into my tribunal , the judge said he was halting it to see whether capita had recorded it themselves, i said judge , if they had id, you'd have an audio copy of it, the judge was having none of my sensible comment and adjourned the 19-1-23 tribunal, writing in his adjournment notice to me that I wasnt to record it , that it would be recorded by the tribunal staff themselves.

Deep breath , so reading this i knew that it hadn't been recorded because i would have had to agree/consent to the recording of it, And i know i wasn't asked, Now it is possible that it was recorded without my consent , I fully accept that , however that's extremely unlikely.
So I began my quest to obtain a copy of the recording, which initially fell on deaf ears, and only when pushed , i met with , its not us its them, we don't know where it is, we haven't the equipment , to finally saying my recording cant be duplicated as it was recorded mistakenly in TRM file format, finishing off with my recording cant be separated from all the other cases the judge heard that day.

Another deep breath sorry guys, so bearing in mind my tribunal was adjourned and id disclosed personal details of my medical history and case to them which should be kept for the restarting of another tribunal, however , they cant provide it because its mixed up with other peoples on that day.

I received a bundle of documents containing all the email conversations pertaining to the apparent reasons asto why the disc cant be produced Including one which states " I guess a little different from usual here as there's no decision to set aside etc, but you can follow the usual procedure for when we do not have a recording,. Which to me..... sets aside all the apparent reasons they'd previously given and popped my situation into the non recorded tribunal box , which would actually fit with my original thoughts the tribunal itself wasn't recorded in the first place

Now i appreciate there's a lot of info here, and i hope any experts reading it can follow the story, meanwhile three weeks ago i contacted them to find out when my tribunal would be held , they'd no details of when, then today 3 days after receiving the other bundle of docs i have a new date for my tribunal, which seemed rather odd , although i'm willing to believe its just a coincidence mmm.

So question is how should I proceed, oh before i forget on the new tribunal docs it states " NEW CLAIM APPEALS" which in my mind it isnt
My data and statements are laying around somewhere , apparently mixed with someones elses, so i'm wondering what i should do.

Hi ,
As to your question why I would need the recording, is easy , its my data, i have been asked that a few times by different departments etc , I am just as they say exercising my right, now your quite right what use is it , well i hope the above answers some of that question, what i am concerned about is that , as it was an adjournment, surely what was said, should be available to the new new panel at the restarted/new tribunal, as per it would be in a criminal court , otherwise i don't see from there point of view much point for them recording it, and yes perhaps procedure with regard to how my data has been handled, lost and treated, if i were to take it a stage further , I'm not sure whether a new judge would say how they've handled my data was lawful, now i know there's a difference between illegal and unlawful, but treating my data as if it simply doesn't exist because they've messed up the recording cant be right can it, and again i'm not sure but id have thought they'd have to say , its being recorded Mr X are you ok/not ok with that

Just as a starter, am I correct in thinking that your appeal started but that for reasons of time or whatever the Tribunal couldn't finish on the day.

It's now adjourned part heard with a date for resumption set in last few days.

Is that much right?

HAving read the thread again it seems to have been adjourned because of an issue over whether the HCP assessment was recorded and accessing that recording. Meanwhile, a second issue has arisen about HMCTS and recording what's actually said at the hearing.

I suspect that the process and legalities of recording proceedings so as to assist the Judge and any 'wing members' sitting with them. Piece here, albeit from a Social Entitlement Judge in Scotland, gives a bit of insight into the process.

Do you know if your case is being resumed before the same Tribunal or started afresh before a newly constituted bench?

If I were in your shoes I'd be wary of getting too far down a rabbit hole around recordings. The purpose of the hearing is to decide, on the evidence before it, how many points you score for each of the descriptors. Anything else carries the risk of being a distraction.

Re read my message and realised I'd missed a few words.

Meant to say that the rules about recordings for the Judge/Members will be nailed down and well established.

The item from Tribunals explains how it works...

I agree, the rules will be nailed down , hence WHY im fuming, IF there was a mistake in law, and I applied to have the judgment set aside or apply to have upper tribunal look at it , then they would see the human error regarding my recording and the subsequent handling of my data re 15.52 msg yes thats right , to be held on the 5-6-23, I agree re the rabbit hole and like so many pip assessments its full of inaccuracies and , and yes, of course id say this, untruths, re Scotland yes it does appear tribunals are recorded in Scotland but there is nothing online ive found to say they are in England.
The adjournment notice from the original judge states my restarted tribunal will be be recorded, hmcts staff , so it will be very interesting whether or not on the 5th it actually gets recorded.
In no solicitor but the way my data ie the recording has been lost/wrongly mixed in with someone elses and then treated as a non recording MIGHT constitute a mistake in law, it and again im no solicitor obviously, if this were a criminal case be thrown out by a judge- i think

I also agree the recording is to assist the judge+wingers , well with no recording to them , that's a non starter, and to my disadvantage

Im bound to say im not stupid and i receive the upper level for daily living and standard for the mobility element, and that's that the tribunal is for to challenge the mobility element of it, I guess im a bit of a stickler for things being right, for me its right or wrong, and yes there's the risk it could be adjourned again lol, or i could lose the mobility element all together .
As an ex magistrate and as im sure youll know in a criminal court its upto the prosecution to prove guilt 9 beyond reasonable doubt) but in a tribunal its the defendant or appellant, to prove there case/appeal, the dwp don't have to say a thing, which then for the appellant could be very difficult , at least in a criminal court , you'd have a duty solicitor.Thanks for your imput on this so far
Anyway we will see what happens on the 5th

Life's complicated at times

Edit if this were a criminal case it would be thrown out by a judge- i think

Edit ( beyond reasonable doubt)

I'm a Welfare Rights Officer - my job is purely rep'ing at benefit tribunals.

All cases are recorded - or should be. The Clerk usually sets the recording running before we go in the room. The judge would normally explain (or the clerk before you go in) that it is being recorded and how you can obtain a copy. They are not always recorded, in which case a judge would make notes. Either the digital recording or judges notes are known as the 'record of proceedings.'

You can not make your own recording.

I'm unsure why a judge would have adjourned to obtain a non-existant HCP assessment recording. However, in doing so, it has transpired further down the line that a procedural irregularity occurred - the record of proceedings (digital recording) was lost. This is an automatic set aside. Your case will now have been remitted to a fresh tribunal. The previous panel will be excluded. If one of the panel members reappears in your new tribunal, it shouldn't proceed.

The HCP reports are frequently full of inaccuracies, exaggerations, etc. It is the job of the tribunal to explore this. If it looks wonky compared to what is in the claim form, or other evidence (eg UC85, med records) it is the tribunals role to find this out. I've never had a digital recording of the HCP assessment. I'd say about 90% of the HCP assessments in the appeals I've rep'd on are immaculate. I've never 'lost' an appeal because of that though.

It sounds like you already have an award? You do realise as a consequence of a tribunal you can lose the lot? I think you need to get yourself support from a specialist. Look at your local CAB (they are not all appeal trained), Welfare Rights (your local council) or Unemployed Workers Centre.

I would not feel 'reassured' that if you lose you can appeal to the Upper Tier. You can't. In order to REQUEST this, you would need to identify errors in law that were made in your hearing. The most likely outcome IF errors in law were made, is your case gets remitted back to first tier.

That should read inaccurate NOT immaculate. Blooming predictive text!

To confirm - your best bet = get some proper advice and representation. I suggested where to get this in my previous post - all these services are free. The fact you have a date on 5th isn't an issue. If I picked up a case at short notice, I'd be requesting a postponement on the grounds I'd just picked it up. If the Duty Judge or Legal Officer at HMCTS didn't approve it (they probably wouldn't and would pass it to the panel on the day). I'd be showing up at the hearing and requesting an adjournment as we'd only just picked up the case. It would be granted. If not, and they proceeded on the papers, we'd be requesting a set aside.

So do yourself a favour and get some representation :-)

I also have it on the adjournment notice that the restarted tribunal WILL be taped by hmcts staff,
I sent you 2 x pms

is this the procedural error you referred to

Including one which states " I guess a little different from usual here as there's no decision to set aside etc, but you can follow the usual procedure for when we do not have a recording,. Which to me..... sets aside all the apparent reasons they'd previously given and popped my situation into the non recorded tribunal box , which would actually fit with my original thoughts the tribunal itself wasn't recorded in the first place

tia

I appreciate your comment about because of the pro error it will now be a new tribunal, here's the run though I had a tel com with as Birmingham to confirm it was just a restarted tribunal and not a new one I was assured it was because the case number/tribunal number was the same and if it was a new one it would have a different number which to me seemed to make since???

Hiya has anyone had a pip tribunal and been successful my oh had his tribunal today after 18months of fighting the judge upheld his appeal and awarded the reading of the outcome was very quick and the tribunal ended mere seconds after the decision had been read ... What happens now
Tia xx

HMCTS will send your husband and DWP something called a decision notice. It is basically the outcome of the tribunal - points awarded, when from and when to. He should get it in the post within a few days, it can take them up to two weeks.

Once DWP have it (they'll receive at the same time)... they should contact your husband to check bank details, check if there have been any hospital stays, or time in prison. He will get his award backdated to his claim date (this will be in his appeal papers on the first page of the DWP submission). Backpay takes 6 - 8 weeks to come through. His PIP should be a bit quicker - it's paid 4 weekly.

Do check all dates on the decision notice are correct - if not contact HMCTS.

If the backpay is in excess of 6k (or will take your savings above 6k) and you are on means tested benefit eg UC. Put a note in your journal. The backpay will be disregarded for the first 12 months it is in your account.

If you would be entitled to claim a Carers Allowance and or Carer Element of UC. Or. Premiums on ESA. These should all be backdated to the claim date. UC are SHIT at backdating correctly. You have to ask. Quite often keep harassing them until it's paid correctly. You may be best off getting help from your local Welfare Rights, CAB or Unemployed Workers Centres.

Thankyou for your reply @perpetuallybusy so I called pip today on behalf of my OH and during the call the payability questions where asked and a double check of the bank details contact info etc ..finger crossed my calling might of shaved off a couple of weeks of waiting for them to call but I was told that was the last stage before it gets sent to a DM so here's hoping now that bits been done it's sent to a DM to update the system but it looks like it's just a case of waiting for pip now