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DH wants to cash in a Royal Mail pension

27 replies

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 09:21

Posting for advice. DH is royal mail worker who took a tax free lump sum on his 55th birthday. He now wants to access more of that pension towards our house purchase. He is 60 next month.
He has two other royal mail pensions.
When he rang last month the operative told him he couldn't withdraw anymore money out of that pension pot. This doesn't sound right to me as he has a monthly pension from this scheme. He is still in full time work. He knows he will pay tax on any withdrawal.
Any advice, knowledge welcome as he is not very money savvy.

OP posts:
ChessieFL · 16/03/2023 09:24

It’s not absolutely clear from your post but it sounds like the benefits from the scheme in question have already been put into payment, if he’s already had a lump sum and is receiving a monthly pension from it. Once in payment the benefits can’t be changed.

It sounds like he needs to ask about taking benefits from one of the other two schemes that aren’t in payment yet.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood the situation though!

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 09:28

@ChessieFL he is taking a pension. The RM deduct 5% for each year below 65 if you access a pension so 25% then tax it.
We spent £10k on advice in 2018 but they still reduced his pot by 50%.
He thought he could just to take the balance.

OP posts:
FrownedUpon · 16/03/2023 09:36

Will he have enough to live on in retirement if he does this? I’d be very careful cashing in too much pension. Maybe ask on the Money Saving Expert forum as they’re very savvy with pension rules.

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 09:41

@FrownedUpon thank you.
RM is very complicated hence employing a pension adviser previously . He does have other income, it is a needs must situation.

OP posts:
RunTowardsTheLight · 16/03/2023 09:44

I am not familiar with this particular pension scheme, but from my knowledge of other schemes I think the operator is correct. There is an upper limit to what can be taken as a lump sum, the rest must be drawn as a pension.

Cupcakequeen75 · 16/03/2023 09:58

Can't help but focus on the bit where you said you previously paid £10k for financial advice.
What did you get for that?

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 10:01

@Cupcakequeen75 not a lot it seems!
We had advice to move all our pensions to new ones including the Royal Mail ones.
We didn't as we had a bereavement.

OP posts:
Marmight · 16/03/2023 10:05

It does sound right.
He took his TFC at age 55 and then took the remainder as a monthly income.
That's it. No further changes to this arrangement can be made.
It could also possibly be a defined benefit/final salary scheme as you talk about a 5% reduction in pension for every year before 65 you take the pension early.
This means that there is no 'pot' of money and certainly nothing to withdraw.
If he has other royal mail pensions, could he take the TFC from them? I would suggest that this would be a bad idea as you are both using the retirement savings even before you retire.

abigailsnan · 16/03/2023 10:07

ChessieFL & RTTL are correct the balance of the pension cannot be drawn down any more and on retirement will be paid as a monthly annuity, check with your pension people if your husband has signed to have half of this pension paid to you if you succeed him if you don't do that the pension will cease when he sadly dies.I requested
having the balance paid as a lump sum not because I was desperate I just fancied a new car and not drawer 20k out of my savings but was refused as the annuity is
classed for lifetime payment.
I am astonished at what was charged for professional advice its way OTT.

SlipperyLizard · 16/03/2023 10:10

It is presumably a defined benefit pension (or there would be no early retirement reduction, which is simply a reflection of the fact that he will receive the pension for longer, it is not a penalty).

That means there is no “pot” for him to take, he’s had his tax free cash and now gets a monthly pension.

He might be able to access tax free cash from one of the two other Royal Mail pensions you mention, but not the one already in payment.

Salverus · 16/03/2023 10:10

That particular pension has now crystallised and the advisor was correct.

Talia99 · 16/03/2023 10:47

www.royalmailpensionplan.co.uk/section-c/your-pension/understanding-your-pension/

It looks like that’s correct - he can have 25% of the assumed value but the rest has to be taken monthly.

It also looks like there is no ‘pot’ of cash - if he joined after 1987, the amount he gets is funded by the PO and is based on his earnings.

Talia99 · 16/03/2023 10:51

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 10:01

@Cupcakequeen75 not a lot it seems!
We had advice to move all our pensions to new ones including the Royal Mail ones.
We didn't as we had a bereavement.

Moving from a gold plated final salary pension to another contribution based pension is seldom justified. What did the advisor say to justify it?

Also, I don’t think you can ever ‘just take the balance’ from a pension. That’s not how pensions work. It’s a max 25% lump sum then the rest monthly.

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 11:05

The information I have now is that the next pension from 2008 is payable next month with a tfc element. There are no age deductions due to DH turning 60.

OP posts:
ChessieFL · 16/03/2023 11:20

Agree with others - there is no balance for him to take. His monthly payments were reduced because he was retiring early and therefore the pension is in payment for longer. Once you decide to have reduced payments for retiring early, those payments are always reduced. That’s the deal for getting 5 extra years worth of payments.

He needs to look at the pensions that aren’t in payment yet so see what can be taken from those.

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 13:54

Thanks all. The first pension was final salary, the second one is defined benefit and is paid from 60. The current one is cash value. He won't retire for another 5 years but wanted to access some cash.

OP posts:
Paperexcelandpens · 16/03/2023 13:58

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 13:54

Thanks all. The first pension was final salary, the second one is defined benefit and is paid from 60. The current one is cash value. He won't retire for another 5 years but wanted to access some cash.

Final salary and defined benefit are the same thing.

milliondollardress · 16/03/2023 14:02

Paperexcelandpens · 16/03/2023 13:58

Final salary and defined benefit are the same thing.

No they’re not? Defined benefit isn’t necessarily based on final salary, it can be career average etc.

Paperexcelandpens · 16/03/2023 14:06

What I meant was they're the same in that what you can take from them are the same. .. I.e not a drawdown.

Testina · 18/03/2023 15:50

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 09:28

@ChessieFL he is taking a pension. The RM deduct 5% for each year below 65 if you access a pension so 25% then tax it.
We spent £10k on advice in 2018 but they still reduced his pot by 50%.
He thought he could just to take the balance.

No pensions advisor would make such a big fuck up as to tell someone that they could effectively treat a Defined Benefit pension in payment as a current account. It’s basic.

“When he rang last month the operative told him he couldn't withdraw anymore money out of that pension pot. This doesn't sound right to me as he has a monthly pension from this scheme”

It is exactly right because he has a monthly pension.

It sounds like he has the following 3 pensions from RM, paid into in this order:

A Defined Benefit Scheme, probably based on Final Salary. This is a set amount per year, based on salary and years paid in. I say set - it will have a rule to adjust it each year according to inflation. Not exactly inflation, but a pre-set rule, often something like, “increase by RPI, to a maximum of 2%” (RPI is an official government published % inflation measure). This can be taken at 65, or early with a 5% reduction per year. So - he lost half of it aged 55, 10 years early. Absolutely bloody crazy decision except if he had a life limiting illness, maybe. He also was entitled to a 25% tax free lump sum, which he took. I’ll come back to that £10K advisor fee. The important thing to understand here is that this was never like a savings account he could dip into. His contributions were buying him an annual amount, for life. And it was a bargain - he was due to get back far more than he ever put in. Even with the fuck up of giving away 50% of the annual amount. Although - he hasn’t lost 50% in total as he’s had the remaining 50% of the annual amount for 10 extra years.

At some point (2008?) that scheme will have closed because it was bloody good and too expensive to meet. So it sounds like he went into still a Defined Benefit scheme, but this time instead of the amount payable being based on Final Salary it would be based on CARE (Career Average Related Earnings). Other terms will have changed too potentially - like you saying there’s no reduction for taking aged 60. So that’s the same position again: he can take a TFLS 25% but then he gets a monthly amount, and it’s not a savings account - that is it.

Finally, sounds like he now maybe has a Defined Contribution scheme - what you get out is what you and your employer pay in, plus tax relief plus any investment gain or loss. Now that is more like a savings account you can dip into when you feel like - although it’s not quite that simple. But I won’t go into taxation unless you ask!

Testina · 18/03/2023 16:12

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 10:01

@Cupcakequeen75 not a lot it seems!
We had advice to move all our pensions to new ones including the Royal Mail ones.
We didn't as we had a bereavement.

OK, coming back to this advisor and the £10K fee in 2018 - was that shortly before the bereavement then him deciding to take the 50% reduction and TFLS?

I and others have explained DB schemes to you. There is no pot of money, just a TFLS if you want it, then a promise to pay £x a year for life. Once it’s in payment you can’t treat it like a piggy bank and ask for another lump sum. You get your monthly amount, that’s it. If you die, there’s probably a lower monthly amount for your spouse, but if you’re not married or they’re dead, that’s it: no more money.

If that sounds unfair, it works like that because the amount of money you get back over an average life post 65 is way in excess of what you personally paid in. So there have to losers for there to be winners, for it to be affordable. (and it’s not really affordable now because too many people lived too long - that’s why they changed it in - sounds like - 2008).

So back to your advisor fee.

Keep in mind that these DB schemes are really expensive, huge liability to pay out. So, it’s actually possibly to transfer out of them. The pension fund administrator can say, “see we might have to pay you £20K a year for 30 years, including inflation increases, at least £600K? Well how about you take £450K today, transferred into your own private pension - one of those DC just like a cash savings account? Then, we owe you nothing. You’re out of this scheme, we’ve paid a lot, but it’s done so we have no more risk of not knowing if we might end up owing you £600K.”

They can’t force, but they can offer.

For most people, it’s not a good deal.

But imagine you’re 55 and have a disease which means you expect to die at 60.
5 years of £20K a year pension then it dies with you (possibly a lower pension to spouse).
Or, £450K right now, you have to pay tax on it, but it’s all accessible. AND - when you die, your chosen beneficiaries inherit it without any inheritance tax! (special exception for pensions)

Now I’ve given an example where it’s a no brainer to transfer out. But the reality is, everyone’s situation is different and the sweet spot is hard to find.

The government recognised that too many people would see pound signs, take the transfer out, piss away the cash and end up poor at 60 without ever realising they’d fucked themselves over, giving up an amazing scheme. The only way to take a transfer is to move it to another private DC scheme. So the various rules ended up meaning that these private pension companies wouldn’t accept your transfer in, unless you had professional advice. They didn’t want to get involved in costly legal claims where people had been seduced by pound signs and taken the money when they really shouldn’t have.

My personal opinion: DB transfers is the next PPI claim waiting to happen 🤷🏻‍♀️ Sure some people were genuinely missold, but in the end a lot of people got compensation for their own stupid decision.

So if you wanted to transfer your DB pension in 2018, you’d have to get advisor advice. That is specialist knowledge and a lot of work - hence a £10K fee. But these specialist transfer advisors had to be specifically insured for that advice… and their professional insurance to cover it was going up. So £10K seems a lot for advice - but it was the going rate. There aren’t many that offer it now.

So, a big assumption on my part, but if you paid £10K in 2018 and we’re advised to transfer out then (a) that’s why the fee was so high and (b) I think you’re bloody lucky you were saved from yourself by the bereavement (though not lucky to be bereaved of course)

It sounds like your advisor was advising you on transferring out - or not. They weren’t there to tell you that you’d lose 50% by staying in and taking it early. It sounds like you feel you lost 50% even after paying £10K. But the two things are not related.

Thefriendlyone · 18/03/2023 16:16

Gosh op, this is not good. Is there really no other way than raiding his pension?

Testina · 18/03/2023 16:27

GordonsAFGirl · 16/03/2023 11:05

The information I have now is that the next pension from 2008 is payable next month with a tfc element. There are no age deductions due to DH turning 60.

@GordonsAFGirl please read this. I’m not an expert at the RMPS, but I know enough about pensions to know that you really need to check your facts on this.

In recent years, many DB pensions have gone through a lot of changes and then closed, like your husband’s.

I said above it sounded like you’d been through 3 major scheme versions: DB Final Salary until 2008. DB Care. Finally DC.

I’ve looked at RMPS website and there are these 3 scheme versions but also a rule change during the DB Care - the one you’re thinking of accessing now, where you think there’s no reduction because he’s 60. I think you’re wrong.

  • - 2008, DB Final Salary, due at 60. Taken by him at 55 with 50% reduction.
  • 2009-2010, DB CARE, can still take at 60 no reduction
  • 2010-2018, DB CARE, now can only take at 65 - or have it reduced if taken early
  • 2018- , DC money purchase - a cash investment pot

So I think you’ll find that if he takes his 2009-2018 pension at 60, he’ll get about 2 years with no reduction, and lose a % (maybe 50% again) on the other 8 years. I think you’re about to make the same mistake again!

I don’t think you’ll be able to take just the 2 years due at 60, either - though I’m less sure on that.

You need first of all to talk to the scheme pension administrator. They’re not allowed to give you advice (it’s illegal to do so) but they can explain the above.

Presumably he’s in a union? He can also ask his Union for support to understand his pension. Again, they’re not allowed to advise but they can explain.

DH wants to cash in a Royal Mail pension
DH wants to cash in a Royal Mail pension
GordonsAFGirl · 18/03/2023 16:28

Thank you all.
@Testina spot on with each pension.

@Thefriendlyone we are looking at other options. He will just take the age 60 tfls.
He isn't retiring but we have been trying to move out of rented accommodation for years. We needed to access some funds over and above our savings due to a sudden change in lending criteria. Luckily I have pensions but I am younger.

OP posts:
Testina · 18/03/2023 16:29

@GordonsAFGirl
please call them and understand it, before you make a mistake. There are lots of people on here who will explains basics to you too.

DH wants to cash in a Royal Mail pension
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