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Self employment and moving from tax credits to universal credit

54 replies

starpatch · 14/05/2022 14:01

The government has said they plan to move everyone from tax credits to universal credit by the end of 2024 so I thought it might be useful to have a thread for those of use who are self employed about moving from tax credits to universal credit. I have no credentials but have started doing a bit of googling.

Personal pension- still technically entitled to have contributions to personal pension discounted as income but apparently its not done automatically, advise on money saving expert is to contact your MP if you have this problem.

Calculation of earnings- apparently you can't use the trading allowance for this purpose. Its a simple money in, versus expenses and taxes paid that month calculation.

I am lucky I have more PAYE income than self employed so I am planning to make top up payments to my workplace pension and stop paying into my SIPP. I am also planning on starting to use the installments option to pay tax, will do my self assessment soon and although I have the money saved in a seperate account I will do installments in case I am moved over to universal credit. Just makes more sense as instead of having one month of self employed loss it will even out more.

Anyone out there already self employed on universal credit who can advise?

OP posts:
starpatch · 14/05/2022 18:15

Bit of a bump...

This is the link to money saving expert forum about someone having difficulty getting private pension payments taken into consideration
forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6001734/universal-credit-and-private-pension-contributions

And this is the government page about reporting earnings
www.gov.uk/self-employment-and-universal-credit

OP posts:
Badbadbunny · 15/05/2022 19:59

I think one of the biggest differences is the basis of declaring "earnings". For tax credits, it's under the normal tax rules, i.e. accruals basis (if adopted), capital allowances, etc - i.e. basically the same "profit" figure as on the tax return. For UC, as the OP says, it's more "money in less money out" for smaller time periods, not full years, I think it's monthly, so there's potential for a lot more fluctuation between months (meaning fluctuation of UC awards) and a massive reduction in "planning" opportunities, i.e. no choice of flexibility over capital allowances. For people with very simple business finances, it may not make much difference, but for those with complicated businesses, then potentially a lot more problematic.

starpatch · 16/05/2022 18:46

Thanks. I find it really weird that they calculate on the actual tax paid that month, rather than the tax owing for that month. So I would have to put aside money for tax, but that isn't considered, so would leave me short. Then the month I do actually pay tax I would make a self employment loss, but presumably that isn't considered. Provided I do my self assessment early I can pay in installments though, so that should help with universal credit.

OP posts:
altmember · 17/05/2022 10:21

I'm going to get caught up in this. I'm not S/E but have a small limited company. All my earnings are PAYE, but UC will treat me as though I'm self employed. It looks like it'll be a total nightmare in every way.

I pay myself a fixed monthly salary, but the business is seasonal, the monthly variations are absolutely huge. I've had months where I've invoiced 20k of sales, followed by months with zero sales invoices. UC is calculated on cash accounting basis, whereas my business runs on accruals accounted. So I'll have to generate a totally separate set of accounts every month asked on what the business bank statements show.

Also UC is paid in arrears - so for things like corporation tax (which is due 9 months after the year end) UC will assume that's my income until after the month when it's paid to HMRC.

It's going to be unbelievably complicated to work out, I reckon a day a month of extra admin to come up with the records in the format UC require.

It might work out ok for self employed people who are predominantly labour based (e.g. cleaner, child minder, painter and decorator). But if you are trading in goods and services beyond your own time UC is a mess.

Badbadbunny · 17/05/2022 12:54

@altmember

UC is calculated on cash accounting basis, whereas my business runs on accruals accounted. So I'll have to generate a totally separate set of accounts every month asked on what the business bank statements show.

Most of the popular cloud accounting software now lets you choose whether you want reports on the accruals or cash basis. Certainly two of the biggest do, being Quickbooks and Xero. So you can view your profit & loss account either on the accruals or on the cash basis, at the click of a mouse button.

Hiphopboppertybop99 · 17/05/2022 20:34

@altmember are you employed by your own company? If so will UC not treat your PAYE as your income and therefore an employed earner? Do yiu pay yourself dividends or anything?
Surely the invoices you refer to, especially the one for £20k is turnover for your business and not your personal income, as you would be way over the earnings level to receive UC. I may have totally misunderstood this thread so apologies if my response is pointless and I have the wrong end if the stick.

cool4cats2020 · 18/05/2022 00:26

Badbadbunny · 17/05/2022 12:54

@altmember

UC is calculated on cash accounting basis, whereas my business runs on accruals accounted. So I'll have to generate a totally separate set of accounts every month asked on what the business bank statements show.

Most of the popular cloud accounting software now lets you choose whether you want reports on the accruals or cash basis. Certainly two of the biggest do, being Quickbooks and Xero. So you can view your profit & loss account either on the accruals or on the cash basis, at the click of a mouse button.

I do all my book keeping on spreadsheets, that has worked fine for me for years. Buying accounting software just to get figures for UC's benefit is another unnecessary expense.

cool4cats2020 · 18/05/2022 01:05

Hiphopboppertybop99 · 17/05/2022 20:34

@altmember are you employed by your own company? If so will UC not treat your PAYE as your income and therefore an employed earner? Do yiu pay yourself dividends or anything?
Surely the invoices you refer to, especially the one for £20k is turnover for your business and not your personal income, as you would be way over the earnings level to receive UC. I may have totally misunderstood this thread so apologies if my response is pointless and I have the wrong end if the stick.

You'd think that would be the way they'd do it. But no, if you're a director or shareholder of your limited company, then they treat you as though you're self employed, which is utterly counter intuitive. They completely ignore your PAYE income, and you have to submit monthly takings and expenses accounts for the business, which UC then take as any business profit being your own personal income.

They decide which business expenses are allowed (I'm not sure if they do this automatically by computer system, or if they have humans poring over all your accounts every month, sounds like the latter though!). I believe the idea behind it is to prevent ltd company owners from hiding their income by leaving it in the company. Which is fair enough, but would be a lot more straight forward to work on an annual accounting period rather than recalculate it month by month.

UC is intended to be a benefit to help people who are on low incomes, but the way it's designed (with potentially massively varying benefit payments month to month, and always being paid in arrears), makes it brutal for the people it is intended to help. By nature people in these circumstances don't have a load of spare cash floating around as a buffer, and are trying to walk a tight rope balancing their household budget.

Yes the 20k example is my business t/o, not my personal income. There are expenses that come out of that - I might sell 20k worth of equipment, but it could cost me 15k to buy the parts in. Some of what I (re)sell are services too, which cost me monthly from the service suppliers.

For example, I have quite a few customers who I give a discount to for paying for 12 months of service up front. I might invoice them 10k for the next 12 months of service, and then I pay the cost price of that service monthly over the next 12 months, at say £700 per month. So I'll make £1600 profit on that (10k - 12*700) over the year, just that I've received all the payment for it up front. The way that'll work for UC is that they'll class it as a 10k profit on the month the payment is made (well 10k-700 I suppose), which taken by itself would totally wipe out my monthly UC payment for that month. Then they carry forward the surplus from a profitable month (income beyond the maximum that takes you above UC eligibility), to subsequent months. So the next month I'd still be massively in profit (on this contract taken in isolation), and get no UC again for that month. I've not worked it out exactly, but it'll probably be 4-5 months before the carried forward surplus has reduced enough to bring me back into being eligible for UC.

UC in monthly arrears is going to be like a pendulum effect, swinging wildly between a low payout following a strong trading month (but if that subsequent month is slower than the big one preceding it, it's a double whammy). And then after a slow month, you'll get a higher UC payment, but you might also be having a more profitable month then, and more money coming into the business account (and this is all despite being PAYE with a fixed salary).

The way to make it work smoothly is to have a very consistent income and expenditure month to month. Even the most regular business is going to have fluctuating monthly profits - some expenses that you always pay for on an annual basis, e.g. insurance, an annual trade show. And even if you do have a business with consistent income (e.g. one that's predominantly labour based), what if you dare to take a two week holiday during the year, that'll cause a slow month for sure.

I suppose it may be possible to plan ahead and smooth out timings of payments and expenses as best as reasonably possible. I could tell my annual paying customers that I can no longer invoice them for a discounted 12 months at a time, that they'll just have to pay it monthly instead. But a) there will be the issue of them losing a discount through no fault of their own (I'd probably have to honour it on a monthly basis), and b) it increases my admin work load dramatically as instead of raising one invoice and chasing one payment in a year, I'll be doing that 12 times for each of these contracts.

As I said, it's just so utterly complicated, I can only think their prime motive is to make it as difficult as possible to claim UC.

There's a very clever and subtle plot going on in the background where the government is trying to reduce the welfare burden by increasing wages (as per large national min wage increases), but not increasing benefit thresholds (or tax thresholds for that matter). So whilst they aren't obviously decreasing the amount of tax credit/UC an individual gets, they are receiving less in real terms.

Badbadbunny · 18/05/2022 06:52

cool4cats2020 · 18/05/2022 00:26

I do all my book keeping on spreadsheets, that has worked fine for me for years. Buying accounting software just to get figures for UC's benefit is another unnecessary expense.

From Apr 24, you'll have to use MTD compliant software to submit quarterly returns for income tax, (or use bridging software from your spreadsheet).

Badbadbunny · 18/05/2022 06:53

Hiphopboppertybop99 · 17/05/2022 20:34

@altmember are you employed by your own company? If so will UC not treat your PAYE as your income and therefore an employed earner? Do yiu pay yourself dividends or anything?
Surely the invoices you refer to, especially the one for £20k is turnover for your business and not your personal income, as you would be way over the earnings level to receive UC. I may have totally misunderstood this thread so apologies if my response is pointless and I have the wrong end if the stick.

No, for UC, you're treated as self employed, because you've got control over how much you pay yourself, so it's an anti-fraud device to stop you paying yourself nothing just to maximise your UC claim.

Hafera · 18/05/2022 07:06

I was actually going to start a thread asking about this. I go self employed in a couple of weeks as a sole trader and currently on old tax credits.
Does anyone know if this will trigger an automatic change?
I've read a fair bit on what I need to do if moving to UC. What I don't understand is I won't have to complete a self assessment until next year so are the payments based on gross income minus expenses and pension/national insurance contributions?

starpatch · 20/05/2022 02:37

I don’t think this will trigger a move to universal credit. But I think you have to register early for self employment. Then as you are on tax credits it will go on estimated annual profit. Remember it is easier to use the £1000 trading allowance if you don’t have many expenses so subtract that from your takings.

OP posts:
ClockTooFast · 20/05/2022 02:54

Oh god, this all sounds like a real nightmare! I have two PAYE jobs and a SE sideline, that makes as much as the PAYE jobs put together. It all doesn't add up to very much but I am dreading this! New software? I cant even work an excel spreadsheet! My friend does it for me!

Sortilege · 20/05/2022 03:08

Hiphopboppertybop99 · 17/05/2022 20:34

@altmember are you employed by your own company? If so will UC not treat your PAYE as your income and therefore an employed earner? Do yiu pay yourself dividends or anything?
Surely the invoices you refer to, especially the one for £20k is turnover for your business and not your personal income, as you would be way over the earnings level to receive UC. I may have totally misunderstood this thread so apologies if my response is pointless and I have the wrong end if the stick.

Yes, they will treat salary from a limited company as just that -salary, dividends as self employed income and on that basis they won’t want to know about the business’ transactions. You’re literally just reporting what arrives in your personal account from the business account and reporting things like pension contributions to be offset from the dividends.

Sortilege · 20/05/2022 03:10

Badbadbunny · 18/05/2022 06:53

No, for UC, you're treated as self employed, because you've got control over how much you pay yourself, so it's an anti-fraud device to stop you paying yourself nothing just to maximise your UC claim.

That might have been the intent, but if you’re reporting your salary to HMRC via Real Time, then UC automatically know about it and it is classified automatically as salary.

ClockTooFast · 20/05/2022 15:50

I submit a tx return every tear, will I have to do it monthly with UC? My income varies from month to month.

starpatch · 20/05/2022 20:35

Just to clarify Badbadbunny's point for those like me who didn't understand. It will apply from 2024 to those who earn over £10,000 from self employment or property. Third party accounting software will need to be used.

Link is here;
www.gov.uk/government/publications/extension-of-making-tax-digital-for-income-tax-self-assessment-to-businesses-and-landlords/extension-of-making-tax-digital-for-income-tax-self-assessment-to-businesses-and-landlords

OP posts:
starpatch · 20/05/2022 20:36

Clocktoofast no you won't have to do a monthly tax return. But you will have to let universal credit know your takings, expenses and national insurance and tax paid every month.

OP posts:
Bagadverts · 20/05/2022 20:57

One of the main things that affects Self employed claimants is the Minimum income floor. If you are gainfully self employed so your main income then your first year on universal credit they use actual income. However after that year they will treat you as earning minimum wage x hours they expect you to work.

MiF is a real problem for seasonal businesses - in the months when you do Better than the minimum they use the actual profit.

www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Universal-Credit-income-and-capital/Self-employed-earnings

a further issue is surplus earnings. A complex area because losses can be carried forward. Currently less impact due to being £2500, but government originally were going to lower to £300. (I think the aim is to stop someone paying themselves a large lump sum in month one and expecting that it would just affect that month.)

www.entitledto.co.uk/help/Universal_Credit_Surplus_Earnings

ClockTooFast · 21/05/2022 08:57

Oh dear, I really don't understand @starpatch I only pay about £300 a year on my tax return. How will I know how to work out how much I pay in tax each month? Will they tell me? I have two PAYE jobs one of which is a zero hours contract, with variable income, and the other is set hours, a regular amount each month.
I'm feeling certain I'll get it hopelessly wrong and I'll end up with no money for the rent! Is there a real life person somewhere who I can talk to about it? I get very muddled when doing stuff by email, or even over the phone. I can feel very anxious when dealing with people who I perceive to have some sort of 'power' over me. I this case, the power to remove financial support.
I am disabled, and live constant fear of my PIP stopping, then the car being taken off me , so then I won't be able to get to work!! I don't have any savings to buy a car.
It all has a snowball effect and it terrifies me. I've got my 'system' in place, and it all works for me. Why do they have to change it? They don'tseem to realise the stressit's going to cause some people!.

Sorry!

Babyroobs · 21/05/2022 10:56

Hafera · 18/05/2022 07:06

I was actually going to start a thread asking about this. I go self employed in a couple of weeks as a sole trader and currently on old tax credits.
Does anyone know if this will trigger an automatic change?
I've read a fair bit on what I need to do if moving to UC. What I don't understand is I won't have to complete a self assessment until next year so are the payments based on gross income minus expenses and pension/national insurance contributions?

No it won't trigger a switch to UC.

ponkydonkey · 21/05/2022 11:26

Oh gawd sounds so complicated
I'm self employed
Small seasonal business
And property I let out

Having to do that every month is going to be an absolute pain!

Currently on old working tax credits.

Thanks for the thread, I'll go and do some research

starpatch · 21/05/2022 11:28

Oh I am sorry clocktoofast. Remember this may not happen for 2 years. I am just wanting to get my ducks in a row as it were. Yes there is benefit advise available. If you are a single parent I find gingerbread really helpful. 0808 802 0925. I tend to just try a few times rather than wait in a phone queue because often you can just get straight through. Or arrange an appointment with citizens advice www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

No you don't have to calculate your monthly tax, if you only have to declare £300 pounds a year then I doubt you would have to pay any tax anyway? But with universal credit it works on how much tax you actually paid that month.

OP posts:
Hafera · 21/05/2022 11:38

But with universal credit it works on how much tax you actually paid that month

Sorry me again!
I thought you pay tax and NI annually when self employed so how does that work with monthly calculations? This is what is confusing me. Or is it possible to pay both monthly?

altmember · 21/05/2022 11:39

Sortilege · 20/05/2022 03:08

Yes, they will treat salary from a limited company as just that -salary, dividends as self employed income and on that basis they won’t want to know about the business’ transactions. You’re literally just reporting what arrives in your personal account from the business account and reporting things like pension contributions to be offset from the dividends.

No they don't unfortunately, and that's the issue. If you're a director of a small limited company UC ignores your PAYE income/RTI, and instead treat you as though you're self employed. All the business income minus your allowable expenses (and they decide what's allowable) are considered as your own personal profit. On a monthly basis.

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