More of a rant than anything! Landlord has applied for APA without meeting criteria

[UCAPAhelp]

NC because I've ranted to my mum and various friends about this already . I rent social housing. I have lived here for 5 years, never had a problem with rent until very recently (will explain this further on). I worked full time, then did a degree whilst working part time, currently still working part time and hopefully going back to full time in the new year. My rent is 'due' weekly in advance, but as I've always been on HB/UC as I have a disabled child, social landlord knew payments would be made in arrears firstly 4 weekly by HB directly and since the switch monthly by UC to me then to them. They have never had an issue with this. I have always paid at the end of the month when I got paid my wage. When I finished my degree I did start to pay my rent weekly using my carer's allowance just for my own convenience and was called by my landlord and told not to do this as it flagged on their system as an irregular payment (?) which indicates that I am struggling. I've had a notification from UC today that my landlord has applied and been approved for an APA for my rent to get paid to them in full instead of to me, which is fine in theory, but it's really annoyed me that they've gone behind my back, not offered me budgeting support first (which the guidance says they should, even though I don't actually need it!), and seemingly lied to get the arrangement pushed through. You have to have specific circumstances and be considered unable to manage your own financial affairs to get the plan. There are more serious factors that can be applied under like for someone struggling with addiction or domestic violence, but also factors like leaving a stay in hospital or having previously been homeless. The main thing is absolutely none of the factors apply to me! As far as I can tell they put the request for the APA in mid Nov when I was around £300 in 'arrears' - again not true arrears as that's just how UC works, and I paid it in full when I got paid - and are saying this allows them to apply for the APA. From what I can see this is not even true, as it has to be 2 months of arrears or more or 1 month plus consistent issues paying meaning risk/threat of eviction neither of which I have or have ever had. 1 month rent is £400 so was not even 1 month in arrears at this time.

In August when I was paying weekly a close relative was on end of life care and I was staying in the hospital and also finishing my last assignment for my degree. My relative passed away and I was the only family member locally so had to sort a lot whilst also dealing with my grief and assignment (had to get it done to meet exam board deadlines otherwise would have taken extensions given the bereavement). I paid my rent as normal at the end of that month because I had so much on and knew they didn't mind if I paid monthly anyway! My Nov payment was 2 days late as there were problems with outgoing payments with my bank the entire weekend which I have proof of and called about on the day I got paid to make them aware of and kept them up to date. I'm currently completely up to date with payments.

I am waiting for the debt team who applied for the APA (without reading any notes apparently...) to call me back tomorrow but I spoke to a more general customer service lady who told me that new tenants now have to be a month in advance at all times, basically like a deposit, which is fair enough but having lived here for 5 years I can't magic up £400 from nowhere. If that had been a condition when I moved in I would have applied for a discretionary housing payment to cover it, but I am not eligible for this now given that I am not moving to a new property nor in rent arrears. They are very aware this causes issues for those on benefits as she told me this! I really don't know what they expect from me when that is how UC works, even if I pay it from that and not my wage it will still only be in arrears monthly?

It's not a massive issue long term, I will cope, but generally I use the UC for my other bills and shopping and then pay my rent with my wage, which is around the same amount and a lot easier. It's really going to affect me losing £400 just before Christmas - I don't get paid my wage until Christmas eve and was hoping to shop for my son before then. All other money is allocated to other bills already. I am fully capable of managing my own finances - I even have a spreadsheet I set up myself where I list my incoming/outgoings months in advance and match it to my bank balance every day to make sure I haven't missed anything. I have a regular small credit card balance which is paid in full every month (use it for food shop etc so know my budget and it seems to be boosting my credit score), a contract phone and a store account but everything is 0% interest and no long term debt at all.

I'm mostly annoyed at the timing of this but also I just think it's rude that they didn't even contact me and that they've clearly made out like I've got serious problems and am unable to handle my life properly even though (and I know this doesn't mean anything to them and there are plenty of people who might struggle for various reasons but it matters to me!) I've just earned myself a 1st class degree with hons in a medical subject and been looking forward to Christmas after a very, very shit hard year.

Sorry I don't understand how it works, but it does sound as if you have always been behind in rent?
I can tell they put the request for the APA in mid Nov when I was around £300 in 'arrears' - again not true arrears as that's just how UC works
Who said its 'not true' arrears, is this your opinion or the landlord?

You have to have specific circumstances and be considered unable to manage your own financial affairs to get the plan

Nope. I work for housing in a LA and you only need to be in arrears before an APA can be requested. My LA have a 7 week rule so 7 weeks none payment of rent we apply for an APA but any arrears at all mean an APA can be applied for.

I really don't understand your problem. Your rent needs to be paid. They are now taking rent from your UC award directly so surely that's one less thing you need to worry about?

Could you do a subject access request under data protection to see if you can find out what notes/decision criteria they have on file and/or a copy of the APA?

Not sure I understand this either, if you are always paying in arrears and owed £300 but you are supposed to be a month in advance then surely you actually owed them £700 at that point? And they have met the criteria as technically you have a history of being in arrears, and owed over a month at the point they applied for the APA?

You might not class it as arrears, but it is and they could probably legally charge you interest on the arrears each month.

Sorry, I know that this isn't what you want to hear but I think they are technically in their rights.

On another note.... You only receive £800 a month in total and have a child? That seems too low, have you checked you are getting everything you are entitled to?

Well done on your study, I've been in a similar situation and had to sit an exam and do a presentation 4 days after giving birth or defer for a year, it was awful but I did it.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-alternative-payment-arrangements/alternative-payment-arrangements

Some info here about when it's considered appropriate. May help you if you want to challenge it.

@MichelleScarn Both, they have always been completely aware of this situation and it happens with everyone who receives help with housing costs because benefits are always paid in arrears. I double checked when I was on the waiting list (whether I had to find a deposit as I did with my private rental) and again when I finally got my tenancy and had a run on of housing benefit before switching to universal credit. This is one of the reasons the discretionary housing payment exists, but they were very clear that it was not a problem at all and I did not need to pay in advance as my rent was covered by the benefit. In fact, I would much prefer to get my payment in advance for the month, but that’s just how it works.

@NeedsCharging that’s not what the official universal credit guidance says on the gov.uk site which is what I’ve read into, but perhaps I am wrong on that. Yes, it sounds convenient and like I said it would be fine in theory if it wasn’t for the unfortunate timing of my wage this month and with it being Christmas. It’s just frustrating- the fact I’ve lived here for 5 years 3 of them on UC with it never being an issue, and they didn’t contact me to say there is an issue once to even see if I could pay any extra or need any advice. Nor did universal credit before approving it, and again the guidance says it they should take into consideration whether the claimant feels able to manage their finances. Absolutely I was happy for it to be paid directly as it was when it was originally HB but was told this wasn’t an option when I switched over unless you were really really struggling, which I’m not! I’ve struggled far more financially over the past 3 years than I am now and never had any problems and of course, my rent and home has to come first.

On another note.... You only receive £800 a month in total and have a child? That seems too low, have you checked you are getting everything you are entitled to?

OP is working PT so presumably that's why the UC is only £800.

"APAs are designed to be temporary until the claimant is capable of managing single monthly payments and should be reviewed after an appropriate period (normally between three and 24 months)."
From CPAG

OP when a LL applies for an APA they have to say way and if its due to arrears they have to state the weekly/monthly rent and the arrears amount. UC then decide based on that info.
I appreciate it has come at a shit time and as a LA we would tell you we had applied for it but private LL don't have to.
You can appeal the APA but it won't help you right now.
As much as I do not recommend buying things on credit could you get Christmas "on tick" then pay in full when you get your wages?

You should have brought your rent up to date at your earliest convenience since the start of the tenancy, you would then be paying in accordance with your contract. As pp said, you would be £700 in arrears just before your UC payment, and that isn't acceptable. Pay extra each month to get ahead. You are very lucky to be in social housing, so following the contract might be a good idea.

@JustGiveMeTwoMinutes maybe, I will see what they say tomorrow. It’s not a thing I’m going to carry on about, it’s convenient enough long term, just frustrating at this very moment in time! UC will review it at some point too.

@crimejunkie01 not quite, but I can see how I’ve worded it that way. They add 1 weeks rent ‘due’ to the balance every Monday. Because I was a tenant before they changed the rules they are saying my account should always be kept at 0 rather than that I personally need to be 4 weeks in advance (so no I was never owing £700!) but their policy for new tenants is that to stay up to date they need to pay 4 weeks up front when they move in so that by the time they get their benefit payment they are still in advance and it never accumulates in the weeks between payments. This is completely understandable and the DHP can help with this for new tenants, knowing that this is a common problem, but I’m not eligible for help like this. I would have been had it existed when I moved in. On my online account my ‘arrears’ go to 4 weeks worth usually the same week I get paid, but I have paid 1 week in the past to make sure I’ve never gone over when I have had a 5 weekly pay period. It’s bothered me that I started paying weekly from my carers allowance, was happy to do this and they flagged it up and called and told me not to. I would still be happy to do this if the money from UC was coming straight to me which would cover it, if that makes sense.

I don’t only get £800 a month in total, sorry if I said that somewhere, I will get just under £800 once this is deducted along with my wage, sons DLA and child benefit (but these both fund regular respite care and activities for him so can’t even spare these for 1 month especially on short notice unfortunately) and my carers allowance, but that is deducted from UC as well. As I’ve only just been notified of this and because I don’t get paid until the 24th (which would be early any month other than December!) my other money this month is allocated for other bills otherwise I would use it to sort out this Christmas issue. Well done to you on the assessments too!

@oviraptor21 that’s what I’ve been looking at but apparently it’s not correct, so not sure. Thank you, I have put a note on my journal asking for further info and when it will be reviewed.

@needschanging Thanks for the info. As mentioned I’m completely up to date right now as normal at the beginning of the month, but as they applied mid month there would have been a balance, which there always has been and they’ve specifically told me that it is not an issue and they preferred that monthly payment, so why they would do it now even if it is on those grounds after 5 years has bamboozled me Not to toot my own horn but there are absolutely worse tenants than me and it’s just put a dampener on Christmas. I probably will have to use credit, I don’t go overboard anyway but will just have to miss out on a few events and such which my son enjoys. It’s a shame. I’ve always been so so careful not to get in any debt or trouble, which is why I have my spreadsheet in order at all times haha! I can’t believe they’ve made a successful case that I’m unable to handle my finances when I’ve gone out of my way to be careful with it. I work my bloody butt off in every way possible and it seems there’s always something just round the corner

@Lineofconcepcion cross post but no, never £700 in arrears because that rule was brought in long after I moved in and the lady only mentioned it to me on the phone tonight when I was querying the APA when she asked when had I moved in. Since the start of my tenancy my earliest convenience is of course monthly when I get the housing costs that are the amount that is due monthly paid to me as they have always known. I’m not sure where I’m supposed to magic £400 from to pay for a new policy that I never even knew existed considering I cannot get the support that new tenants can. Many people on these kind of benefits that pay in arrears struggle to find the spare money to feed themselves!

Meant to add @NeedsCharging in regards to the missing out on things because of the change - I only have a very small credit limit (on purpose!), smaller than my wage even, which is why although I will be able to buy some things, some things will have to go if I’m doing it on credit. My credit due dates never line up with UC or wage either so it can be incredibly awkward planning my payment dates for different things lol.

Just to clarify- you are late every month with the rent, and pay it at a time that suits you and your family best, whilst spending the money given by UC for your rent on family expenses, and making that up with your wage at the end of the month. They have always accepted this arrangement, even though technically it's late. But there has been two incidents it has been 'late, late'? And now they would prefer to be paid directly on the specified day, but you don't want this as you rely on using the money before your wage comes in, and that will make things harder? If they can prove the rent has been late every month, do you have the gentleman's agreement that they don't mind in writing? Otherwise I don't see why they wouldn't approve it.

@SD1978 Indeed - they specifically advised me when I moved in that this was the arrangement for those on benefits paid in arrears because they are aware of the paid in arrears issue. There is usually - see 5 weeks like Jan coming up, but have paid an extra week before to combat this - less than a week between my UC payment and my wage, but of course at Christmas being able to do your shopping 1 week before Christmas Eve does make a big difference, especially considering I’m working Christmas Eve. It’s a big company that took over the councils social housing so there isn’t a specific person, and all contact is over the phone to their call centre, but yeah there are definitely notes on the system regarding these issues and that we’ve talked about the payment dates and the weekly vs monthly payments multiple times, including when they rang me to tell me to stop paying weekly, and also notes on there about my relative passing away and the banking issue which I rang back to let them know I had paid it. I literally couldn’t do anything any sooner, it was the weekend and the banks were down for maintenance which I have proof of, it was sorted first thing Mon morning. I’ve mentioned all this in my journal as I have a sneaky suspicion my landlord has not mentioned those notes or the fact I have raised the issue and been told not to worry, yet not contacted this time when they are claiming to be concerned. Not sure how getting paid a variable wage on a different day each month really suits me - it certainly doesn’t and I’d absolutely like all of my payments to be more consistent and in advance rather than arrears.

Just thought I’d let you all know I was worried and making a big drama out of nothing! That’s what happens when UC sends notifications out of working hours! Have spoken to my estate officer - turns out that she is leaving and in the hand over her colleague has seen the ‘arrears’, not read the notes and not realised I get my rent paid through UC as I’m just listed as employed, and put the request in based on that as obviously if I didn’t claim housing costs I would be expected to pay weekly. Clarified just in case and as they know the situation they are perfectly happy with me to pay any time within the week that the 4th week of ‘arrears’ is added I.E 5-7 days after UC when I get my wage as I have always done, as long as it does not go to 5 weeks or more, which it never has done as previously mentioned. They are requesting a reversal, just hope it’s done in time for Dec. payment as it took UC 2.5 weeks to process the original request. I did explain to her that next year onwards I wouldn’t even be bothered and that I’d asked about continuing direct payments when I switched over from HB, but she agreed that I don’t need an APA and said that if they did that for everyone who pays in arrears because benefits pays in arrears they would have no time to do anything else Have a great day everyone.

Gald you have got it resolved! Not sure that explanation makes sense though? If they didn't know you get UC, why would they apply to UC for APA? Sounds like some arse covering is going on. Either way I hope you get sorted for Christmas

I thought the same; but from what I could tell it sounds a bit like Chinese whispers - the housing officer who is taking over my area sent an alert about the arrears for them to follow up on it based on me being employed but then the admin/debt team just automatically applied for the APA upon realising I was on UC. That’s the explanation I received anyway… who knows what goes on when it’s passed down the line several times. Thank you @CrimeJunkie01 - hope you have a great Christmas too!