Helping older relation to manage money after bereavement

[financialhelpneeded]

Very sadly, FIL died earlier this year. MIL is doing surprisingly well in every department except financial management.

They have a LOT of savings in many, many bank accounts which always used to be FIL's task to manage. Now he is gone, MIL is struggling with this task.

She can cope with the day to day demands of managing one bank account, she just can't deal with 40+ savings accounts. She has no experience of filing or organisation and she simply will not listen when we try to offer simple advice like "You need to keep letters from banks in folders, not in random plastic bags" or "Fill in this form we have made you with the key info for each bank account and then tick it off the list and file it in the red folder". Because she refuses to follow a sensible system, she constantly loses everything - including track of where she is.

She needs to get together a financial statement of FIL's assets for probate and it's proving VERY difficult. And this is a relatively straightforward task - all she has to do is to 1. Ring the bank 2. Send them a death certificate 3. Get a balance.

She is not a stupid or incapable person - she is articulate and fairly educated, but for the sake of honesty in getting advice: she is REALLY selfish. This is the first time in her entire life she has ever had to do something she didn't want to do.

DH has sat with her for HOURS (we live a long way away and have taken weeks off work to help her). He is extremely clear and patient and has talked her through it step by step. And it's not hard. Yet she refuses to listen. We really don't know what to do.

I know that a lot of people will put this down to the effects of grief, but she is absolutely fine in every other department of her life. She doesn't have much empathy or emotional range, and as long as she can spend the day seeing friends or making jam, she's fine.

What can we do to help her? Is there any way we can get someone professional to do this work for her?

It sounds as though your husband is going to have to take it all on, OP, I'm afraid. You could pay for an accountant to do it, but would she give her all the paperwork?

We can't take it on because the banks won't speak to us. They will only speak to the account holder.

We could go down a road of financial power of attorney but I am EXTREMELY worried about the likely possibility that she would accuse us of stealing from her. Because she is like that. So not willing to take that risk.

I don't think an accountant can do it, for the same reason?

You need to step in. Make a list of all the organisations and accounts. Draw up a standard letter “I, Mrs X wish to give permission for my son Mr X/ DIL Mrs X to speak on my behalf and if possible for all paperwork for my account to be sent to ……. “ Make sure you also tell them your address and date of birth. That should allow you to speak on her behalf. This will take time. A lot of it.

Also over time shift things round so you have less institutions to deal with.

She could instruct a solicitor to do the probate for her. It's not particularly cheap, but if she doesn't want to then that's perhaps the best option?

I was 52 when my husband was killed. I seriously could not think beyond my next breath for many months.
I threw all our accounts at our probate solicitor and left her to it.
Three and a half years on and only now am I able to attempt to start reading a book (just this week). I still can’t concentrate enough to watch the TV properly.
Someone needs to step in and help. My friend came over and dealt with insurance policies and pensions for me.
Do not underestimate the trauma of losing your soulmate. The simplest of tasks can and often overwhelm.

She isn't like you, Iwant2move. She isn't struggling with grief. She is fine, and has breezed through. She doesn't have much in the way of feelings. She can do anything that she wants to do or that is in her interest (she recently managed the letting of a property just fine because it was going to make her money).

She has a solicitor to do the probate but they don't collect the financial info together. You have to do that yourself.

We spoke to banks and they insist they need to speak to her personally and can't deal with us.

What’s the issue with leaving her to it then OP? Are these savings accounts? If so, can’t she just leave them where they are or close most of them and lump savings together in just a few accounts so it’s more manageable. I don’t know anyone that needs 40+ accounts and that would be quite overwhelming for most people to deal with.

Yeah, savings accounts. The issue with leaving it, as far as I can make out, is that savings over £85k are not covered by the financial compensation scheme so if a bank goes bust you lose it. FIL set up lots and lots of parallel accounts, one on his name, one in hers, up to the compensation limit. Now she inherits it is all hers and she is way over the limit on most of the banks.

We are not talking about a small sum of cash that we can just manage easily on her behalf. If it was a question of consolidating a few accounts with a tenner or two in them, I would be comfortable. But I have no experience managing this kind of money and I do not want to open DH or myself to the accusation that we have taken cash from her, or that we have invested it unwisely. She is completely ungrateful for help she is given and totally not above doing that.

I also don't know if we can get more limited perm ission from the banks to deal with just the paperwork and balance without being able to movemoney. Does anyone know? Some limited power might solve this though I utterly resent helping her out because she's thoroughly horrible.

She hasn't even given a thought to how DH or his brother might be coping with losing their father, and the answer is a lot worse than she is coping. Instead she just piles job after job on all of us. And this is not new, she has always treated us like servants.

Ultimately though, if she has had the money passed to her, it’s down to her what she does with it. Sadly that includes leaving more than 85k in accounts and risking losing some of it. Whilst you wouldn’t normally want someone to lose their money, if she isn’t listening and you are worried she may accuse your DH of theft, she needs to be left to it. If she’s of sound mind, your DH cannot tell her what to do or act on her behalf, no matter how well meaning.

NS &I are not bound by the £85k because they are government backed. So all money is fully covered, but Interest rates are very low 0.1%

Well leave her to it then.

Your poor mother in law. She’s grieving. She’s bereft and that usually goes through a phase of denial and anger. She really isn’t ‘fine’.

She has been led (albeit willingly) to a point where she doesn’t have a grip on her own marital finances. That’s both embarrassing and placing unreasonable demands on her. It shouldn’t have happened, but it has so now she needs support to address it.

If she has cognition, why would she think someone, particularly her son, was stealing from her?

Is she the executor or was he intestate? Has anyone seen the will? Has anyone asked where it is? If there is an executor that isn’t her, they should be dealing with the accounts. In fact, if the accounts were in your FILs name alone, nobody can touch them. They should be closed down by the executor.

You talk about a solicitor as if they are executor. That requires them to take control fully. They should be dealing with the banks directly. Unless the accounts are joint, your mother in law has no right of access or control.

I think your husband sitting calmly working through them is the best way to determine what the finances look like. Small chunks at a time - there is no rush, after all.

Assumedly, if it’s significant sums and she’s of a certain age, your husband will inherit plenty soon enough to outweigh any support he gives now. Seems like a reasonable expectation. If you ‘leave her to it’ there is the possibility of longer term disappointment, isn’t there?

Think about him having LPA donated for the future. She’ll need to give it, but it might save hassles further down the line if she becomes dependent.

I've already said this: WE HAVE A SOLICITOR. THEY ARE SORTING THE PROBATE. He died 6 months ago, the will is with the solicitors, she is the sole executor.

But solicitors don't do everything. They have told MIL to gather together the financial details to hand over to them: according to what we have been told, the lawyers have no ability to contact the banks on her behalf and get things like balances. They are really confidential pieces of info. She has to ring the banks up, tell them that he has died/send in a death certificate, and get a balance on the death date (and yes, we've done Tell Me Once too, but that only covers a small fraction). This is something none of us can do for her, because we can't speak to the banks on her behalf. She is compos mentis so we can't get financial power of attorney.

I love the not-so-subtle way of casting shade on mumsnet, so thanks for implying that we are thieves. The actual truth is that she is a thoroughly horrible entitled person (she has zero friends because she's awful) and that she absolutely would make random accusations against people for no reason.

My DH died unexpectedly earlier this year. I'm good with paperwork and the finances were mainly my job.

I'm struggling to concentrate and deal with the amount of financial paperwork resulting from his death. Every piece of paper is an upsetting reminder. Every phone call I have to make is hard with having to talk about the death again.They're like a huge mountain.

I look like I'm doing ok as I'm managing ok on day to day mindless jobs like cooking or cleaning. But grief takes so much of your energy.

So be kind to her. Especially if the money was his job, She's got 12 months to do the probate stuff.

If there's that much money get an accountant or independent wealth manager in to deal with it.

Poor woman. My policy financially has always been to keep it simple. At one time we had various ISAs and it did my head in having to remember what to do when. So - full holding of Premium Bonds and the rest is in current account. I was widowed last year and have moved house and there was a profit on that which sits in jy current account.

There is nothing low risk that pays interest worth having and as things stand I know where my money is, I can get at it if I decide I want to help my children in some way and I do not have the hassle of having to tat around with it in any way.

I hope that you will fond a way to get her through all this - I do fully understand why she is reluctant to get engaged with it. Presumably she has enough to live on day to day, and I guess that might feel enough for her.

Please do not feel she has breezed through the bereavement - on the outside that is how I seem - but on the inside.............

I don't really care about inheriting. I would honestly rather DH got nothing and we didn't have to deal with her. But unfortunately he feels guilty, even though she offers him nothing - no love, no emotional support, no care. She is a TERRIBLE mother.

So I'm coming round to the idea that we're going to have to take this on, on top of our 50+ hour weeks, so that she can spend all her leisure time going exactly as she pleases. Because as she gets older and needs more support and care, it's going to be a complete nightmare if her financial affairs are in utter disorder. We both work 50+ hour weeks, so it's a big deal to try to fit this in on top of everything, and galling when I suspect the only reason she can't do it is because she doesn't want to.

I cannot emphasize enough: she is not a normal person. She does not have normal affective reactions or normal responses (this is partly why she's so awful). She lacks any capacity for empathy with anyone else. I know it sounds like I'm minimizing her grief, but honestly, hand on heart, I am not exaggerating this. She is and always has been 100% self-centred, and there is no room in her life for love or care for anyone other than herself, including late FIL. Her MO in the world is to make demands of everyone else, while offering nothing in return other than criticism and unkindness. I feel desperately for those who have lost loved ones on this thread who ARE going through grief - it is a terrible thing. But she is insulated from most of its ravages.

(To add, it's not just me who feels this way - her behaviour is really extreme. The rest of the family all, without exception, agree that she has some kind of undiagnosed empathy deficit disorder and some problem processing the idea that other people even exist, with their own ideas, hopes, aspirations and dreams. Everything is automatically subordinate to her demands and wishes, all of the time)

OP solicitors can collect the info. for her, but they will charge her for doing that. It may be easier if she just asks them to do it.

OP, she is an adult with capacity. Leave her to it. She is not your responsibility. Your DH has given her all the info and support required. Now it’s up to her.
If she continues to make unreasonable demands, simply refuse. “DH told you what to do last week. We’re too busy at work, sorry.” Rinse and repeat.
Eventually she will have to get on with it.

I would leave her to it for a few months then try again. It sounds like a nightmare but you and your dh have the choice of letting your MIL get on with it herself (or not).

She could give family members power of attorney if she wants you to sort it out, you say she can't do it because she's compus mentis but they can be enacted at any time with the donor's consent. I saw that you are worried about accusations of theft, she can't have it both ways, she either trusts you to sort it out or she doesn't. If she needs to complete a tax return then you are going to have this fun every year, as someone else said, best to simplify as you go along, close all your father's accounts, stick the proceeds with NSand I and she can look at a long term investment plan when it's all settled and she knows what she's dealing with.

If she won't do that then I would draft a form letter to enclose a death certificate and ask for the balance at the date of death and just get her to sign them. Stick the account details at the top of each one and one standard letter will do for all the banks (If you only have one death certificate this is the time to get more and get it done faster). You could ask them to return the details direct to the probate solicitor which skips the step where she loses the response. I would not go into the bank, when my father died some of them looked on it as a chance to sell investment products. I wouldn't even bother ringing them, it takes too long when the alternative is to stick a stamp on a form letter. It might actually be faster to do the job yourself than to support her in doing it, especially if she can't be bothered.

I think I'd struggle with 40+ savings accounts, keeping up with that is too much like work. Just because that's what his father did doesn't mean that is what needs to happen in future. She might want some independent investment advice but she needs to be clear about what she has first.

Part of me says just let her wallow in it but really, the family need this to be settled and done with. Unless she has a friend that would help her (by doing it for her) then it looks like it's going to be on the family to carry her through.

I'm going to take a few days to think about the pros/cons of this, because it's a huge decision and an immense amount of work. DH and I both have really busy, hard jobs and we live 5 hours away so we can't just drop in to sort stuff a bit at a time.

One thing I need is to understand the differences between financial power of attorney and a third party mandate, because I've heard different things from different people. Some have said that you can't get PoA, even voluntarily, unless there's something physically or mentally 'wrong' with the person (and she is fighting fit in both senses). Others say it's possible. What is the difference between PoA and a 3rd party mandate? Which is best?

If we do take this on, we will need to consolidate the ridiculous number of accounts into something more manageable (once we know what she has and where I am hoping then to get advice and help from a financial advisor).

Like the suggestion of getting banks to send the info direct to the solicitor - that would be useful. We have literally done the draft letter thing for her - DH has also prepared her lists and standard forms for every account, and has sat with her for hour after hour showing her how to fill in the most rudimentary details. They are VERY Fisher Price. But she just refuses to use them, or to file in the way we have shown her.

And yes, all this would also involve doing her tax return for her.