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Original poster

house inheritance, but no deeds ANYWHERE incl Land Registry, and squatter in place

32 replies

fizzbuzz · 05/11/2007 20:44

Please please can anyone help? Am going round in circles.

My grandmas sister died about 30 years ago. She left no will, and had no children. My grandmas children (incl my mum were her nearest next of kin)

The family has tried repeatedly to claim the house. However there is no record of the deeds anywhere, not even in the Land Registry. Solicitors seem reluctant to take it on, and we are scared of cost, so we nevr get anywhere.

A squatter has moved in and registered his claim with Land Registry. But we can't get him out, or prove it is ours without the deeds........and there is no deeds.

OP posts:
Original poster
fizzbuzz · 05/11/2007 20:45

there are no deeds of course.......

OP posts:
saggarmakersbottomknocker · 05/11/2007 20:48

I thought that Land Registry could reconstruct the deeds. We lost some at my previous employment (bank) and had to pay to get them redone.

Is it not actually registered at all?

Tuttiefruitie · 05/11/2007 20:51

Sounds like an awful situation to be in and I am afraid costly!!! I am no solicitor but have worked as pa in conveyancing. It sounds like it is going to cost!! You must have proof of title, proof of possession anything, There must be some decent solicitor out there to help. What of the solicitors dealing with the estate? costs would normally be met by the estate as well....
Sorry not much help.

mylittleponey · 05/11/2007 20:53

would get the will looked at as there must be something in it about the house. Also who has ownership?

FairyOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 05/11/2007 20:59

It sounds like it could be unregistered land ie the Land Registry will have no records. From memory (and it's a long time since I did any of this.... so these are just ideas off the top of my head), different parts of the country beame compulsorily registrable at different times and even then, registration was only required when a property was transferred. So if she died 30 years ago and lived in the property for a long time prior to that then it is possible that it was never registered at the Land Registry.

I presume that you have made detailed enquiries of all the local solicitors in the area and also all the banks, in case they hold anything?

What happened when she died? Could you get a copy of her Will from the Probate Registry and see whether there is any mention of the land in it? Could you find out who her executors were, and see if there are any papers relating to that anywhere, or whether a firm of solicitors dealt with the probate? Can you prove that she lived in the property at all, eg old correspondence or any other documents with a reference to her address in it.

I'd say you definitely need some advice from a conveyancing solicitor about how you can register your claim to the property with the Land Registry. I don't know the rules on squatter rights but I think you need to challenge his claim asap.

Good luck

karen999 · 05/11/2007 20:59

Hi, how long have the squatters been there? Becasue there is a prescriptive period for possession.

Do the LR have any record of that house at all? Do you know who she purchased the house from? Are there any docs from that original sale?

Lilymaid · 05/11/2007 21:10

Intestacy rules (i.e. where people leave no will) - I have pasted the rules for unmarried women without children but they would be different if she had been married:
Unmarried person with no children:

  • Estate goes to parents.
  • If none, then to siblings of the whole blood or their issue.
  • If none, then to siblings of the half blood or their issue.

It sounds like the property was never registered with the Land Registry - land registration has only recently covered the whole country and property would only be registered when it changed hands. I don't know whether you have checked whether there had ever been a charge on the land - the Land Charges Dept of the Land Registry may be able to help. The squatter may try to register his/her interest (adverse possession) You really do need a good solicitor to sort this out!

karen999 · 05/11/2007 21:12

Have you tried the Sasine Regsiter (I take it you are in Scotland??!!) not sure from your post but I would try with them as this is the 'old system' and you may find the property is registered with them....

bookofthedeadmum · 05/11/2007 21:16

Squatters need to prove 12 years 'possession' of the property but this needn't be the same person - the 12 years can be accumulated by more than one person provided that they have 'excluded the world' and have treated the place as their own ie putting up locks on the doors and restricting entry so you have to get their permission to come in. They also mustn't have paid rent to anyone since they're then admitting someone else has a superior claim on the property. It's a long time since I studied land law though - do check out the current position with a conveyancing solictor ASAP. I'm not sure if you can get legal aid for property disputes but the fees can probably be settled from the estate.

Original poster
fizzbuzz · 05/11/2007 21:27

Thanks so much for help.

There is no will, no documents nothing at all.

The house has been unlived in for 30 years, because the family have tried to sort it out inumerable times, and just hit a brick wall but there is no written or legal documentation, and have no idea where any of it may be,

However she definitely lived there and owned it.

Squatter has registered his interest at Land Registry, but hasn't been in long enough to claim posession.

How can we prove ownership with nothing legal? Would the electoral roll be any use?

Whole family is terrified of legal cost which is why no one ever really pushed ahead with it.

Also not in Scotland, or anywhere near!

OP posts:
Katz · 05/11/2007 21:28

i'll point hulababy is the direction of this thread, maybe her DH can help.

Original poster
fizzbuzz · 05/11/2007 21:29

Lillymaid, what would be a land charge?

OP posts:
Original poster
fizzbuzz · 05/11/2007 21:30

Hmmmm, Hulababy lives very near me.........

OP posts:
karen999 · 05/11/2007 21:34

there must be some record of it somewhere! However I know you are scared of the cost but what is this against the cost of the asset? could you not get a lawyer to take it on in a contingency basis?? also, if you explain the situation to a lawyer they should be able to give you a rough estimate as to cost.

Katz · 05/11/2007 21:36

at least with advice on costs involved

Original poster
fizzbuzz · 05/11/2007 21:36

What is a contingency basis? Is that no win no fee?

Yes am terrified of cost in case we don't succeed, but the house is worth about £250000

OP posts:
Hulababy · 05/11/2007 21:37

fizzbuzz - you can email me claire.king13(at)btinternet.com and I can ask Dh for more details

But based on OP he thinks it would be a very expensive process. It would be possible but would take a lot of man hours to sort it. Would be looking at a lot (several thousand likely) of money, and you can't expect to get anything back from other side: can't sue someone who has no money, etc. Obviously all this is based on OP only.

Which solicitors have you been too?

If you want to you can email me (or DH) and he can suggest a next month, or at least how much it would cost and what he'd do in your position.

karen999 · 05/11/2007 21:37

I have just googled about this problem and it came up with a co called 1st locate - who can tell you who owns a property if it is not registered with the LR - maybe worth a look....even if it is to see what records they have...it may give you something to go on.

Hulababy · 05/11/2007 21:39

Dh thinks no solicitor would do this on no win no fee.

Based on information here impossible to say what chances are of winning. Would need more info.

karen999 · 05/11/2007 21:40

Even if the whole cost was £25,000 this is only 10% of the asset...yes..contingeny is no win no fee...may be worth a look....you can also contact the law society, explain the problem and they should be able to point you in the right direction, ie, someone who may take on your case.

GunpowderDragonsAndSoup · 05/11/2007 21:43

"How can we prove ownership with nothing legal?" Have you contacted the Land Registry and asked them how you could do this? I can't imagine this is a problem they've not encountered before.

Lilymaid · 05/11/2007 21:46

Land charges include mortgages and easements. The Land Charges Dept of the Land Registry may have some records of charges on the property which show who owned the property when your Great Aunt was alive.

karen999 · 05/11/2007 21:51

Just went onto the LR website - section called "free land and proprty" - well worth a read since it seems to apply to your situation -

www.landregistry.gov.uk/assets/library/documents/public_guide_016.pdf

Hope this helps.

FairyOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 05/11/2007 21:53

Just to throw another 'spanner' into the works - do you know who should have inherited it from your great aunt? ie what her will said, or who would have got it under the intestacy rules? If that person/those people have subsequently died then don't forget that the value of the house may fall into their estates and, depending on the size of those estates, mean that there will be inheritance tax to pay as well.

Out of interest, why did her executors not sort this out when she died? Surely they are in breach of their duty to have ignored such a large asset. Is there no paperwork at all from the time of her detah?

FairyOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 05/11/2007 21:54

that should have read may mean that there will be inheritance tax to pay