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FIRE starter

595 replies

Mia85 · 14/02/2021 17:37

This is a thread for discussing FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) and supporting each other in planning for the future.

For anyone new to FIRE, the idea is that you live significantly below your income and invest the surplus, usually in low cost funds. The aim is to amass enough that you can live off the returns. At that point you are finanically independent and you are free to spend your time as you wish (which might include working if you want to do that).

There's a huge amount on the internet about it. Lots of news stories e.g. here and here One of the main gurus of the movement is Mr Money Mustache and his website is a good starting point www.mrmoneymustache.com

A lot of the FIRE discussion out there seems to be very US based and/or men in their 20s with no kids trying to retire extremely young so I though it'd be great to talk here and hopefully find likeminded people.

OP posts:
LemonSwan · 30/03/2021 02:59

Your house and garden plans sound wonderful!
And thank you @LunaHeather

I think it sounds quite nice too if I dont say so myself.

We can live and dream and if we dont make it well at least I paid the mortgage off and can go skiing after all :)

Starface · 30/03/2021 09:34

Well it sounds like you don't have to make all the decisions today.

Stick with your plan on the mortgage.

Keep the rest in the business. At most you will have lost your LISA allowance for one year. No biggie in the grand scheme of things.

Then take your decisions slowly as you understand them. Get your emotions and 3 am thinking under control and make decisions with a cool considered head.

Remember you will make some choices that in hindsight look like mistakes. Don't beat yourself up. You are learning. Just do your best at each step and give yourself permission that this is good enough to rest easy.

Starface · 30/03/2021 09:35

I found it mind boggling in the beginning and was basically scared of money.

You can only start from where you are and learn. You aren't stupid, you'll get there.

LemonSwan · 30/03/2021 11:46

Thanks Starface,

Yes I think your right I just need to take it one step at a time and dont do 3am flapping.

Looking at the flow chart we are at this step...

Except as the goal is a house we can be slightly more effective to put it straight into the mortgage than save it at low interest.

That makes sense and is simple enough for me to understand :)

I am happy its a good enough plan

FIRE starter
Mia85 · 30/03/2021 13:04

I agree with Starface that you shouldn't worry about having to make all the decisions at once. Work out your goals first and then the path to achieve them. It's very very likely that that path will change as life happens so don't worry now about fixing all of those steps. Yours is a much more complex situation given the way in which your personal finance is mixed with the business. You're taking a very aggressive approach to paying down the mortgage. That might well be the right thing but do just make sure that it doesn't affect your other goals, including for the business.

OP posts:
StaffRepFeistyClub · 01/04/2021 13:43

If you get the chance to boost pension contribution then do so. I have being paying extra for the past 8 years and wish I had done so over a longer time period but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Paid of the mortgage a few ago and now use the 'mortgage money' in a S & S isa . I am not using a fund at the moment but sorting out my own investments but being really careful not to overtrade. But I may top up one of my funds next financial year.

Our approach has always been that if we need to take out a loan for something then we dont need it. Second hand cars are great. We save up to buy stuff if we really really really need it

wheresmymojo · 02/04/2021 11:23

Hi all,

Hoping I can join even though I'm very much at the beginning of my FIRE-lite journey.

A potted history: I am not a naturally frugal person, until last year I was earning about £8-12k per month and somehow managing to spend it all even though I would say we didn't have a particularly luxury lifestyle. Despite the money I was earning we had taken on huge amounts of debt across a big mortgage, two brand new cars on finance, credit cards. Somehow it just got frittered away, the money would feel like it would run through my fingers like water. I was incredibly stressed in my job, to the point that it was making me very ill.

Then comes the pandemic. DH & I both out of work. Total financial nightmare.

However a complete wake up call for me - my life was so much better just pottering around doing things that were very cheap (painting, gardening, walking, talking to friends) and I realised what a ridiculous life I was leading. To keep myself tied to a job that was making me ill for things I don't actually care about (brand new cars, etc).

So we've had a 180 degree turn in lifestyle in 12 months.

  • Reviewed all spending and cut back thousands per month
  • I've changed jobs to one that pays £40k but I actually enjoy it and have little stress now plus it's 9-5pm, not the crazy hours I was working
  • Got a lodger
  • Set up some additional revenue streams

So we've made massive progress in 12 months BUT the next few years are going to be as much about dealing with the consequences of my previous lifestyle as anything as we pay off the debts we have from then. I'll be saving and investing what we can alongside but this won't be much, however with every debt paid off it will be transferred to saving/overpaying mortgage/investing.

It's a long journey ahead of us especially as I say, I am very much not a naturally frugal person (mainly laziness!) and in a different place to most of you but would love to join as you are all such inspiration!

wheresmymojo · 02/04/2021 11:26

PS. Had a quick look at money mustache this morning and this really stood out to me as this is where I need to focus really - when we were easily spending £8-10k per month we didn't have exorbitant lifestyles at all - in fact our lifestyle now on less than half the money feels the same!

In recent months, I have just had my eyes re-opened as I have had more contact with people who are living more typical American lives than me. Their normal is different than mine, so when I visit I happen to notice the differences – more car trips and impulse purchases and pizza deliveries.
These people are not living lifestyles that appear exorbitant at all, and their houses aren’t packed with expensive things. But these little 5-to-1 differences just silently happen, quietly and consistently and add up to perhaps $100 per day, when compared with a more streamlined lifestyle.
And $100 every day becomes $36,500 every year, and if you invest that conservatively it will compound into about $520,000 every decade.
$520,000 per decade.
Just from the tiny mindset switch between
“hey lets order a pizza”
versus
“Hey, let’s throw a pizza into the oven.”*

wheresmymojo · 02/04/2021 12:01

FYI I have a few side hustles and also know a lot of people with side hustles so will do a post about those at some point in case it inspires ideas for others.

If you want a free UK holiday and don't mind looking after pets (I love animals) I recommend checking out housesitters.co.uk.

We now have a 2 week holiday to Devon in a lovely rural farm cottage in exchange for looking after their 4 lovely dogs, chickens and 2 turtles 🐢

We adore dogs and all other animals so this is actually a bonus for us, not a chore.

Also worth looking at if you have pets and would consider using a free housesitter when you're away.

(We have 4 cats but our lodger and neighbour look after them when we're away)

chimichangaz · 02/04/2021 12:14

Hey @wheresmymojo welcome to the thread!! I love your story, and in particular the insight you just shared about ordering pizza vs throwing one in the oven. This is the basis of so many poor decisions for me, little choices that end up costing too much.

Yes please - definitely share your side hustle post, I would love to read that.

This has been mentioned upthread but if you like YouTube then have a look at mamafurfur. Odd name but has a great story about paying off debt, and good videos that are very helpful.

Mia85 · 02/04/2021 12:24

Welcome wheresmymojo and congratulations for making such huge changes. You're so right, it is incredibly easy to fritter money away without really gaining anything from it. That's probably the most helpful part of FIRE for me, being conscious of the financial consequences of the way you live your life and the impact on your future freedom. E.g. I'm quite happy with the thought of working longer in order to travel interesting places with my children now (well obviously not now, but post covid!) but not in order to pay for frequent take aways or expensive beauty treatments etc.

The house sitters website looks great, though sadly I doubt they'd take families with children. I've followed some blots where people do international ones too. I'd love to take time to slow travel round the world and do some house sitting on the way.

OP posts:
lannister · 02/04/2021 15:04

@wheresmymojo your story is very inspiring and well done for that massive u-turn on your finances. Would love to read about your side hustle ideas.

DarlingCoffee · 02/04/2021 16:19

Reading with interest. Currently looking at other income streams. Is BTL still viable in the UK these days? DH and I are considering purchasing a flat in our town and renting it out.

Mia85 · 02/04/2021 18:43

I have had some surprising news out of the blue today that could make a huge difference to us. It seems I am going to get an unexpected inheritance from a great aunt (who had no children and was essenitally another grandma to us) who passed away recently. I am in shock because she was not a wealthy woman and I thought it would all go to my mum anyway. I really hadn't expected anything at all so hadn't even consdiered what I would do. I'll have months before I receive anything but I'd really appreciate thoughts on the wisest way to spend it.

The exact amount won't be clear till everything is sorted but it would be equivalent to a huge chunk of our mortgage. We have a fixed rate for another year (and penalties for overpayments over 10%) but if we used most of our savings I think we woud be able to pay the whole thing off at the end of the fix. That would be 20 years early so would give us massive security and free up money for other things. On the other hand interest rates are very low so perhaps that's not the best use of money.

I'd really appreciate any advice (though also trying not to count my chickens).

OP posts:
Starface · 02/04/2021 19:45

@Mia85
Sorry for your loss.

Well, I just had a look back through your posts, and you've offered such thoughtful comments that I'm not sure I'm going to add anything much to what you are already thinking. But I appreciate your head might be reeling.

As you've said before, its about identifying your goals. You've said you are more interested in FI than necessarily RE. You've said you want to prioritise holidays and experiences with the children, and also the freedom and flexibility FI brings.

So. It may not be the best choice to totally pay off the mortgage if that wipes you out. You will probably want to use some of your money for experiences now.

In the light of a large financial change, you probably want to review in the round. What lifestyle do you really want to be really living right now? You might want to work part time, or locum/supply/consultant, as that can give more flexibility. You might want to RE, by putting money into e.g. ISAs, as you identified before this can allow you more flexibility at a younger age than other wrappers. Is this important? You seem to have an excellent handle on the different vehicles so can probably form a good plan once you have revisited your goals.

On the mortgage question. Investing in the stock market would usually beat a mortgage at current interest rates, over time. There is always the argument that you can invest rather than pay off the mortgage. Although endowment mortgages did not always end well. And arguably the stock market is over valued and a correction is not unlikely, though this may be only a short term issue. The past is not always a good guide to the future etc. But there is the psychological aspect of paying off a mortgage. In terms of mental freedom that might be important. This probably also depends on your thoughts around working and whether you might want to maintain eg a smaller monthly payment, which means less of a commitment so more flexibility of choice.

Remember this is not all or nothing. You could split between reducing the mortgage at the end of the fix, and loading up eg ISAs and having some great experiences. You said yourself the concept of being a FIRE-liter is a potentially useful one.

It can also be nice just to buy a nice thing with inheritance, so you look at it and remember the person. A painting, a piece of jewellery, an ornament. Something beautiful, longlasting and potentially meaningful. It can be a truly lovely thing to carry through life in memory of your aunt. In the scheme of money like this, a grand or two can be worth it.

Those are some thoughts. But first, take your time, take time with your DH to think about your new life plans and goals. It makes a difference to your OP where you felt too late to the party!

MrsWombat · 03/04/2021 08:23

I'm more of a lurker as I don't think I'm ever going to get to the FIRE stage, but really pleased with myself today as I've just opened up a Vanguard SIPP and moved over an old small pension. I've invested it in some Vanguard funds. Not the target retirement funds yet as they gave me a lower forecast than all the other options I put in, but I'll look at it seriously every 5 years (I'm 40) and see if I need to switch.

chimichangaz · 03/04/2021 08:31

@Mia85 so sorry for your loss. Some good advice there from @Starface

Welcome to the thread @MrsWombat and well done on opening your vanguard account!! Small steps lead to great things...

LemonSwan · 04/04/2021 22:43

@Mia85

So sorry for your loss Mia.

As others have said you obviously are more knowledgable than me but you helped me out last week with my plan to overpay the mortgage - so I thought I would share my findings in case they help you with ideas.

My accountant has suggested moving to an index tracker rather than a fix as this will give more flexibility (as their are no max overpayment charges). This may be an option to explore and allow you time to see how you wish to use your inheritance; or an offset mortgage is another option - also a safe option in terms of safeguarding your assets if you have multiple pots above the FSCS limit of 85k.

Another idea I gathered from the PP is your want for travelling and experiences. Her mentioning of the endowment mortgages got me thinking that if you can find the right product you could explore an stocks and shares 'endowment' for holidaying. Try to keep the same capital and draw down the gains for your travels. May be an insane option - completely off the cuff thinking.

Just a few ideas and dont forget what you told me last week - take it one step at a time :) Flowers

Mia85 · 05/04/2021 21:37

Thanks ever so much for the really thoughtful replies Starface and LemonSwan. Sorry for taking so long to reply - we've been taking some time out over Easter. Welcome MrsWombat great to have you here too.

I still feel very torn about what to do. I feel I've got to spend this money wisely and have something life changing to show for it. I think it's probably the case that it would get a much better return if we invested it rather than paying off a mortgage at a very low interest rate. Then again paying it off would put us in a really secure position and I could then take more risks in the future if we've got a fully paid for house to fall back on. It doesn't help that the economy is so uncertain. You're also completely right that I don't want to limit what we can do now just because it's become possible to pay the mortgage off. If we're ever allowed to travel again there's so much I want to do with the DCs and that time will go so quickly. An offset might be a good idea for that reason.

I think it'll be at least a few months till I actually have any of the money or any certainty over exactly how much it will be. Plus it's still just over a year till our current fix ends so I have plenty of time to see what happens.

OP posts:
Gassylady · 06/04/2021 14:24

@wheresmymojo hope you don’t mind me asking but what jobs were you doing to receive such large incomes. What were you spending on? Fascinating what you said about takeout versus stick in pizza. Agree there is a balance to be struck between throwing money away on fripperies and feeling that you can never treat yourself today because it must all be saved/invested for tomorrow

Mia85 · 08/04/2021 15:00

@wheresmymojo would still love to hear about the side hustles!

OP posts:
StaffRepFeistyClub · 08/04/2021 16:02

So two side hustles I know that have generated a small income for two people I know

1 .A friend turned her side hustle into a business when she took early retirement. Basically she is a very knowledgeable about plants and took an RHS course. She now gets regular gigs to sort out peoples garden pots. I used to laugh at that but the bulk of her money comes from sourcing plants of the right height and width from non-retail nurseries and she grows unusual plants etc for baskets and tubs to sell through her website. Her garden isn’t huge but it earns her money - she is like a mini Sarah Raven

  1. A keen outdoor colleague runs ‘build your own campfire’ sessions for grown-ups. He does this as birthday/anniversary gigs. So it could be a breakfast /afternoon tea or supper thing where you brew/cook food, make kindling for fire. Bit Bear Grylls.
LunaHeather · 08/04/2021 16:08

The pizza thing really puzzles me tbh

I can't fathom how food became such a big deal that people would prefer to order than bung one in the oven. I now want pizza but I get mine at Aldi!

I've got the first of two bonds maturing to review. Absolutely dire interest rates.

I love the thing with planting as a side hustle. Sadly I have no hobbies that could be made profitable.

Chihuahuacat · 08/04/2021 16:27

@LunaHeather I’m very guilty of the pizza. For me, it’s not a case of I have an oven pizza in the fridge and choose to order takeout.

It’s more I’ll get in from work, be tired and the last thing I want to do is wander to the shop. It’s the convenience (and a terrible habit I’m trying to cut down!)

LunaHeather · 08/04/2021 16:46

[quote Chihuahuacat]@LunaHeather I’m very guilty of the pizza. For me, it’s not a case of I have an oven pizza in the fridge and choose to order takeout.

It’s more I’ll get in from work, be tired and the last thing I want to do is wander to the shop. It’s the convenience (and a terrible habit I’m trying to cut down!)[/quote]
Keep a yummy Aldi one in the freezer!