Employment Advice please

[Jenswish]

Work are calling me in for a disciplinary on Friday?!! Apparently I'm bullying?! Its a load of crap there, they're just trying to get rid of staff cos the market isn't too good at the moment and I think they are losing money with so many employees. They've already fired 7 people who were on probationary periods so now they're resorting to bullying the others out of their jobs (They've brought the same things against 2 others who have just handed their notices in instead) obviously I can't what with being pregnant.

What I want to know is, if I don't get fired on Friday can I legally ask to go on my mat leave straight away? Also if I do get fired have I got a case for unfair dismissal?

I hope so too,

Did you manage to get a copy of their grievance and disciplinary procedures to see what they say? It is the responsibility of the employer to draw up these procedures.
Also, are they firing you because of 'gross misconduct'?Also, did they mention anything about you being able to appeal the decision?

yeh I can appeal and they're firing me on gross misconduct.

I can't get the disciplinary thing cos they have it in folders which we aren't allowed to copy or take away

ridiculous that they wont let you have a copy.

Ok - technically if you have been found to have been abusing the computers, ie by sendind e-mails then this could be classed as gross misconduct....obviously I do not know the contents of the e-mail and so cannot really comment on this....ie whether they were offensive in nature or could be perceived as bullying.

If your conduct did amount to gross misconduct (I am not saying that it did) then technically your employers are allowed to act quickly. The reason for this is because if they did not act quickly then any future employment tribunal may find that the conduct in question was not that bad after all.

I would have thought that initially they would have suspended you pending an investigation but I do not think they did this, did they?

It looks to me like they are covering themselves in a manner of ways by terming your conduct as gross miscondut, it by being able to bypass some of the normal procedures.

I am going to have to go and make dd her dinner as she is now screaming....I will look into this further for you if you like.....most of this is off the top of my head (from law school days) but I will try to help you. If anything immediate springs to mind let me know...

I think though the crux of this matter falls on the fact that they have deemed your conduct as the most severe knid - ie gross misconduct. I would want to make sure that they investigation had been thorough and that you had been allowed to state your position.

Will check back in after dinner!!

Would using company computers consistute as gross misconduct though? I always thought it was things like violence, stealing etc that would be gross misconduct but surely putting your opinions in an email isn't?

I was never suspended and it was 3 weeks from when they first raised it to the actual disciplinary meeting. (It could have been held that week)

If they just perceive it as being bullying is that good enough? As I really don't think it is. The worst I said is do you want to hear something funny about "girl" she's in trouble. As far as I was concerned it was a private email and the "girl" would never have known or seen it.

Also (I don't know if it counts) but they've fired the girl I was apparently bullying (I think) so surely this negates the whole thing?

Thanks for all this and hope your little 'un has stopped screaming now.

Just had a look what constitutes as gross misconduct and have found this.

Gross Misconduct

Gross misconduct is where an employee breaks the rules, and the consequences for the business are damaging. For example:

Abusive Behaviour or violence

Theft or fraud

Alcohol or drug abuse

Discrimination or harassment

Deliberately damaging company equipment/property

Seriously breaking health and safety regulations

Serious Negligence

Serious insubordination

Misuse of an organisations property or name

Serious breach of confidence

The only thing I can see that may come under it is breach of confidence perhaps, but I still don't see it as that.

Ok so your email would have had to negatively impact on the business.

i think you have a good chance... but again I have no idea.

Oh and abuse of the company systems would suggest more than one email.... abuse would surely have to be over a period of time etc.

Obviously it is hard to comment on stuff when I am not privy to all the info....it seems strange to me that they have classed your conduct as gross misconduct - I agree with you...however there is not list of what does and does not constitute certain types of conduct....that would be too easy!

The whole situation seems strange to me - what was the reason for firing the girl that you were supposed to have bullied?

Also, e-mails on a work are not classed as private - they are the property of the company (I think - would have to look into this more)

What have they said to you with regards your appeal....have they given you a letter stating what your rights are etc...

Yes, she has stopped screaming....mainly because she has now been fed!!

I would also ask for a copy of the grievance procedures....if they have nothing to hide then there should be no problem in providing you with a copy.

I wil try and find out some more stuff re types of conduct etc and find out up-to-date law as opposed to what I can remember!!

Hope some of this helps in the meantime...

Putting your opinions on a company email IS misuse of the organisations property and name, though. If their name is on the email, which it would be, then it is tantamount to you expressing an opinion on behalf of the company. Where I have worked before, this is gross misconduct.

I will look for some case law also to see what types of conduct have been construed as gross misconduct.

One other point to mention is that in your hearing they seem to have address all your conduct as one - I think they should have dealt with the serious stuff separately and then addressed general attitide etc

dramaqueen - I didn't think of that one. Does this apply even though they were internal emails (so from one worker to another)

I haven't had my letter yet but they are sending one through.

I don't know what the reasons are - if its true (i'm working on rumours)

I mean reasons for firing the girl

I am pretty sure (although not 100%) that they have to give you a copy of the disciplinary hearing minutes.

I think you have a right to copies of the emails to which the original hearing pertains.

I don't suppose you kept copies yourself?

Either way I don't think what you have said constitutes gross misconduct; your actions did not threaten the profitability or reputation of the company.

Get some advice from ACAS (they're good on the phone)asap and request copies of all the documentation from your employers. Keep copies of all correspondence from hereonin and make notes of any phone calls and conversations that you have had WRT the whole matter. Need flowery's help here I think but she's taking an MN break she is the MN HR guru.....

Cheers,

i'm not going to go into this if i'm not going to win cos I have'nt got the time or patience to deal with it if i'm not going to get anything at the end so i'll send them a letter tomorrow requesting copies of all documents and go from there.

Hi again! Ok, baby in bed for the night so should be able to post again.

You have been dismissed and now (depending on the appeal outcome) it has to be decided if the dismissal was fair or not. This is covered by Employment Rights Act 1996 section 98 - the sub section pertinent to your situation is ERA 1996 section 98(a)a reason which relates to the conduct of the employee....

Whether a particular dismissal will be held to be fair or unfair will depend on the circumstances of the case and whether or not the employer acted 'reasonably' in the situation. This is sometimes where things get hazy because what might be reasonable for one employer may not necessarily be reasonable for another. The question will be determined in accordance with equity and the substantial merits of the case - ERA 96 section 98(4)

If it goes to at ET it is for them to find that , on the basis of evidence presented, whether or not the employer had acted reasonably in treating that reason (ie conduct) as a suffcient ground for dismissal.

The reason a lot of cases go to and ET is that they are seeking to challenge the 'reasonableness test' - as with anything in law there is no cut and dry answer. Whether or not an employer acts reasonably is a question of fact......the fact that you are heavily pregnant can only help your case that your employer in this matter did NOT act reasonably.

Hope this makes sense - any questions, just ask....if I come across more I will post again.

I think you have a few valid reasons for a win here;

a) You're preggers and that is in your favour, I really don't think that their advisors would be happy about them fighting you in today's 'employee climate'

b) What you're alleged to have done does not IMO constitute Gross misconduct, in the majority of companies it may have been grounds for a verbal or written warning but certainly not instant dismissal

c) You state in your OP that the company is losing money and getting rid of employees etc which would help your case in proving that you were sacked as a front for evading mat/ redundancy pay etc. as well.

Call a solicitor first before you approach your workplace and get some up to date legal advice - Employment law is a very complex thing and I think it would be wise to get the legal advice before alerting your employers to what you are intending to do - write things down as they are fresh in your mind as you may forget specific dates and info (especially with preggie brain!!)

Lastly, how are you feeling and have you been back to the docs yet? Please don't allow this to stress you out and risk any probs - your bump is far more important.

Big hug for you x

Wisteria is correct about getting up-to-date legal advice. Employment law changes all the time so this is good advice. I think what I have posted still stands but better to get advice from an expert. Also, I am quoting you substantive law and not necessarily procedural law.

From what you have said, I think you should really contact a lawyer - at least just to get their 'take' on it.

I would also point out that it is very hard to give this kind of advice/opinion via this kind of forum - your lawyer/advisor will be in full receipt of the facts and will be able to advise you accordingly.

I hope you get success.....I will stop posting now as I would not want you to take what I am saying as gospel - I can only tell you what I know...this might be wrong!

Seek legal advice and try not to worry - if you feel you have a case then pursue it!! XX

Jenswish/LuckySalem. I didn't see you mention anywhere how long you've been with the company. How long is it? The reason is that unfair dismissal (but not sex discrimination) claims need a year's service.

I've spoken to a lawyer (on the phone via dad's union) and he is saying that not only does the punishment not fit the crime but there was no crime.

As far as he can see it, they should have just come to me and said you can't do this. Which I have found out they've done to another girl since (but she was only complaining about the bonus' nothing else)

I have to appeal the decision direct to the company so I will get my DP to help me write a letter to them

I can't remember who asked (cos I've been typing away too long) but i've been working there since July 06.

On another note I've just been Jobcentre and I don't qualify for Statutory Maternity Pay as it is ONLY paid by the employer. Only maternity allowance, which might as well be money down the drain.

I'm in a bad mood today and I can't stop crying, so I may sign off for the day, depending on whether I get annoyed again.

Good for you re speaking to a lawyer....of course you must appeal! Try not to worry too much....the lawyer clearly feels that you have a case so that is great news!

Let us know how you get on. x

I'm glad that your lawyer agrees you have a case; can't he give you an outline of what to put in the letter?

I will try to find you a template or something.

You need to talk to your lawyer about the SMP point. I think that, because your employer terminated your employment within the last 15 weeks before your due date, they may still have to pay you SMP even though they have terminated your employment. I can't find the rules, but I know there are some. Get your lawyer to help out.

Well just sent the appeal letter.

Am very scared about the meeting cos it would have to be with the boss who is a scary b***d so have mentioned I will be bringing union rep and that I want copies of all emails and disciplinary proceedure, am hoping that's enough for them to realise that I'm serious and not going to just drop off the face of the earth.