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is my dh entitled to half?

71 replies

Tortington · 01/06/2007 18:49

if i buy a proprty. i have 3/4 deposit if we divorce does he get half - or just half of the equity? is there any way i can protect my initial investment?

OP posts:
Tortington · 02/06/2007 14:50

kids are fine thanks.

OP posts:
Judy1234 · 02/06/2007 17:18

The answer to the question when your children are adults if that you will get 50% even if you put up 3/4 of the deposit.

However if you don't work and gave up work for him and to look after the children for 20 years etc you might get maintenance paid by him until you can retrain and possibly you might get more than 50% vbut only because he earns loads and you don't have a job, not because of who put in what at the start.

Tortington · 03/06/2007 00:51

i have a lways worked.

he has agreed to signing something - even if it isn't legally binding.

OP posts:
Judy1234 · 03/06/2007 09:55

Yes, I always worked and my husband on the divorce got more than 50% even though I would estimate he probably earned about a fifth at the most of our assets/savings/shares. He bascially got everything, our life savings, my shares, every single penny of savings and I got a mortgage of over £1m (plus some equity in a house I can't sell because I have to house 5 children he chooses virtually not to see and not to support). He is a higher rate tax payer, has a mortgage free 5 bed house, works full time and has several hundred thousand in the bank. Such is English divorce law.

If you're already married you could try a post (after) nup. This article in the FT this week was interesting about them but from a US perspective.

"The massive infusion of cash into the so-called hedge fund communities in New York, Connecticut and California has proved to be fatal to many marriages ? and a windfall for lawyers, psychiatrists and forensic accountants who specialise in the super rich.

?There is no question that a huge infusion of wealth to relatively young people has a disastrous effect on the marriage?s stability,? says Bern Clare, a Manhattan divorce lawyer.

Divorce hedge-fund style often means the judges involved must cope with pre-nuptial and post-nuptial agreements, years of fights over access to hedge fund accounts, and monetary demands well into eight and nine figures.

?When you are dealing with the über-wealthy, you are dealing with the über-lawyers,? says Kevin Tierney, the presiding judge of the family division in Connecticut?s Stamford-Norwalk district, where many hedge fund families live. ?They have accountants and para-legals and duelling experts.?

Further complicating matters is that the assets involved, unlike real estate or jewellery, are highly variable, depending on the gyrations of the stock market. ?You can have an asset change by $1m while a witness is on the stand,? Judge Tierney says.

Hedge fund and private equity divorces are often far more bitter than those involving film stars, according to Scott Weston, a Los Angeles matrimonial lawyer. ?People are fighting for their ultimate rights,? he says. ?They?re not satisfied with $20m, $30m. They want half. Why not spend a couple more million dollars [on lawyers] to get $20m more.?

Mr Weston recently had a case where the dependant spouse, a wife, insisted she needed $800,000 a month in child support payments, even though she already had an income of $7 million a year.

?The judge listened calmly and found she had plenty to maintain herself. Then he ordered $100,000 [a month].?

Sometimes the little things prove to be the sticking point. Sheila Riesel, head of the matrimonial law group at Blank Rome, says: ?I?ve had cases involving hundreds of millions of dollars and knock-down drag-out fights over the kitchen equipment.?

In one recent divorce, the entire settlement was hung up on the issue of whether the former wife would be given $500,000 or $750,000 a year to cover the cost of first-class air travel, says Ken Burrows, an attorney who handles hedge fund divorces in New York and Connecticut.

The level of animosity sometimes seems ridiculous to non-participants.

?I?m sensing increasing resentment among the judges. You see steam start to come out of their ears,? Mr Burrows says. ?They say things like: ?If you can?t resolve it, tell your client we?re going to have a trial in two days and she had better be ready.? ?

Still, most participants say the fights eventually get worked out.

Gaetano Ferro, a Connecticut lawyer who is president of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, says: ?The more the money, the easier to settle.

?When you?re fighting about $100,000 and it matters whether mom gets the house, they?ll claw and scratch. If you are fighting over $50m or $100m everyone is going to walk away with more money than they?ll ever be able to spend.?

Judge Tierney agrees. ?Ninety per cent of the big-money cases settle,? he says. t be enforceable as we are the place of choice on this planet for lower earners on divorce."
Postnuptial deals explore uncertain legal waters

By Brooke Masters in New York and Michael Peel in London

When hedge fund managers turn to postnuptial agreements in an effort to protect their new wealth and trading strategies from prying spouses, they are entering an uncertain legal world.

Postnuptial contracts are agreements to split marital assets signed after marriage. They have a somewhat unclear legal status in the US, especially in comparison with prenuptial agreements, which are signed before marriage, and have been well-litigated.

Both practices are even less well established in Britain, although attorneys there say the law is evolving, particularly as wealthy business people move between the US and the UK.

In the US, "postnups" are regulated on the state level. Most states do not specifically mention the agreements in their domestic relations code. A few, including Ohio, ban them.

Elsewhere, appeals courts have tended to accept agreements signed as part of an attempted reconciliation but, says Sean Williams, a Harvard Law School lecturer, be sceptical when one party simply gives up claims on the other's assets."

brandyboy · 03/06/2007 18:02

if anyone is interested - you might like to know that there is a very good new divorce community website where you can get free advice on the whole process - and their community are really friendly/supportive

the also have a divorce calculator so u can work out exactly what you will walk away with if you do divorce!

www.wikivorce.com

beckybrastraps · 03/06/2007 18:05

How did he get more than 50% Xenia?!

Judy1234 · 03/06/2007 18:12

Many lower earners get more than 50%. Most women in the UK who divorce get more than 50% because half the house barely meets their needs when they aren't working. If they gave each person 50% of £30k equity the children woul dbe on the streets. 50% is probably actually quite rare and only when there is a lot of money to go round or no children and equal earnings.

Also he wanted high maintenance for life so I was in effect buying that out and him not paying for the children was part of that too.

beckybrastraps · 03/06/2007 18:14

Blimey. But he's a higher rate tax payer you said. So not really badly paid then. And the children live with you. Blimey.

Anna8888 · 03/06/2007 18:17

But surely, if one half of a couple doesn't want a divorce, that person is entitled to compensation?

My partner's ex didn't want to divorce, so she gets compensation, even though she is much richer than he is (in French law, under their marital agreement, their assets were kept separate).

beckybrastraps · 03/06/2007 18:19
Hmm
Anna8888 · 03/06/2007 18:21

Becky - you are sceptical at the idea that, if one half of a couple doesn't want a divorce, that half is entitled to some form of monetary compensation?

beckybrastraps · 03/06/2007 18:22

Frankly yes.

Catz · 03/06/2007 18:24

I would be very cautious about a 'divorce calculator' it may give you a guide to roughly what might happen but essentially it's a very discretionary decision that depends on the judge's view on all the facts of your case (or more likely, in reality, what you can negotiate between yourselves). It might be a useful starting point but don't think it gives you an answer to what you are 'entitled to'. There is no formula.

Also, as Xenia has said, 50:50 is not a rigid rule, it is a starting point. Very few people actually get 50:50. Even in White v White, the famous case that established the 50:50 starting point, the split was actually 60:40 NOT 50:50, this was because the man had a substantial inheritance at the start of the marriage. Also, the lower your assets/income the more likely the court is to be focused on needs not the 50:50 split.

The info below comes from a FAQ on the website that Brandyboy suggested. It's a pretty reasonable summary of the way the 50:50 starting point works (the only caveat I would make is that "bad financial conduct" would have to be extreme before the court would consider it):

"You may have read in the papers about 'big money' cases - where the assets available for division clearly exceed the parties' needs - have focused on the concept of equality of outcome. Contributions to the running of the home and the bringing up of children are valued equally by the court on divorce to contributions made by earned income. There may be other considerations - for example, the liquidity of the assets making up the family pot, or any inheritances received, or particularly bad financial conduct on one side, which dictate that the outcome should not be equal. Fairness is what the court will try to achieve - and a 50/50 split may not be fair in all cases.

Each case has to be looked at individually. It depends on the circumstances of those involved.
In most cases, the financial settlement will reflect what each person needs fundamentally, money to pay all the bills and to sort out somewhere to live.

A 50:50 split is often the starting point, but many factors
have to be taken into account."

Anna8888 · 03/06/2007 18:28

Becky - so you think that people like my partner or Xenia, who wanted to divorce, should be able to walk away without compensating their partners?

beckybrastraps · 03/06/2007 18:33

Compensating them? No.

I think marital assets should be shared as fairly as possible (not necessarily equally).

I think in most cases the causes of marital (or non-marital) breakdown are too complicated to be apportioning blame and therefore awarding compensation.

You may not want a divorce, but there may be a pretty good reason why your partner does.

(Not you of course - you're lovely I'm sure )

Anna8888 · 03/06/2007 19:42

Becky - marriage is a legal contract between two adults and that is all it is.

If one party wishes to get out of that contract, outside of the provisions of the law, then it seems to me quite important that they should have to pay compensation to the other party.

My partner wished to divorce his ex because he found her neglectful of her family and he was very unhappy. She did not wish to divorce and was perfectly content with the status quo. While I understand why my partner wished to divorce, I also understand why he must pay compensation (in a lump sum) to his ex, since there is no provision in French law for neglect of family as grounds for divorce.

beckybrastraps · 03/06/2007 19:45

How very logical.

Anna8888 · 03/06/2007 19:52

Yes... IMO People ought to take a closer look at thp huge legal implications of marriage before tying the knot, rather than getting a nasty surprise a few years down the line.

There was a very interesting article about marriage in America in last week's Economist, saying how the divorce rate has plummeted among the most affluent/educated classes (except for celebrities). People have learnt that divorce is unpleasant and impoverishing (in all senses) and take their marriage vows more seriously than in the past.

Judy1234 · 03/06/2007 19:53

Anna there is no concept of compensation in English law. There may be in French but not in English. In about 1970 we changed the law to remove all concept of fault which was a huge step forward and has worked very well on the whole although it offends people's sense of natural justice. Also it makes no difference to money who divorces whom either. You can see why this makes sense - Ms X nagged him badly. Mr Y had affairs. Mr X had 2 affairs, Ms Y had 4 affairs. Mr X blacked her eye, Ms Y didn't giveh im sex for 20 years. You just can't fathom these things and apportion blame. My ex got more than 50%. I think it was nearer 60% but higher if you include him not paying for the children for the next 18 years as a kind of commuted sum because he was giving up the chance to live on my earnings which are 10x his for the next 30 years and into retirement and beyond.

England is one of the noly nations on earth which has concepts of 50% plus maintenance for life. Even California I think is only 50% of assets but once you have those you're on your own. It's why if there is a choice lower earners like to divorce here and why the courts just the other week were calling on the Government to do something about the law.

I see Mr Miller who paid his wife £5m for 1000 days of marriage and no children, is trying to bring a human rights case about his right to "propety" under the European Convention on Human Rights.

Tortington · 03/06/2007 19:54

i am not "now uber wealthy. however my mother made wise investments and lived excruciatingly frugally.

i think it would be disrespectful and not fair for my dh and i to divorce and for him to be entitled to my mothers money by virtue of nothing other than he is married to me.

seems bizarrely the only way i can protect the money is to divorce!

OP posts:
Judy1234 · 03/06/2007 19:55

..I meant no concept of compensation in terms of when you divorce. There was compensation mentinoted in the Macfarlane case and that was because she gave up a legal career at Freshfields 18 years before to bring up the family and partners there earn almost £1m a year and the court talk about her career sacrifice and compensation for that, a strange new concept which I doubt will be very popular.

Judy1234 · 03/06/2007 19:56

cust, but isn't that what many greedy wives claim who haven't done a stroke of housework, had servants, hardly seen the children who have nannies and boardings schools and then say thank youI'll have half your £800m fortune because I happened to be married to you? The whole of divorce law is shot through with unfairness.

Anna8888 · 03/06/2007 20:01

Xenia - I know that, about compensation in English law. Actually, it's a very recent introduction to French divorce law too. Previously you could get "damages" which tended to be nominal (in monetary amounts) but meant that payer of the damages was tarnished with the guilty brush, saw less of the children as a result etc.

Divorce here is now along "no fault" lines, but if one half wants a divorce and not the other there is an issue of compensation for the reasons I gave below, which is entirely independent of either party's assets. I think I quite like this (if one can get one's head around "liking" divorce law ).

Judy1234 · 03/06/2007 20:03

I don't. Surely one could just make the other person's life a misery at home and then they initiate the divorce. My ex husband was dreadful, even hit me a bit and I would never ever have divorced. I'm not in favour of people giving up on marriages but I didn't have any choice yet on that French system it woudl be classed as me wanting a divorce and penalised for that when it was his conduct in my view that caused it.

Anna8888 · 03/06/2007 20:06

In French law there do exist certain "faults" which are grounds for divorce, most notably any form of physical abuse, for which there is significant compensation. Interestingly, since the law changed, there have been a far greater number of divorces on grounds of abuse.

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