Help please. Housing benefit over payment nightmare.

[namechangedforthis37]

I have name changed for this as I know how these subjects can become a bunflight and I am a regular poster and want to keep some anonymity.

I have been claiming housing benefit since I became a lone parent four years ago. I have just had a letter through asking for my payslips and bank statements as they haven't updated my information for a year. I took this in and on Thursday received a call from the council asking me to confirm my childcare payments, which have remeined unchanged since the beginning of the claim at £90 per week.

As with the tax credits department, I provided them with a copy of my childcare contract when I originally made the claim.

The man on the phone asked me when they had changed from £200 per week. I said that they had never been £200 per week and had always been the same. He said that is what they are in their system as and he will have to suspend my HB to investigate how far back this has happened and that I will have to bring in copies of my childcare contract so the claim can be adjusted.

Now, this can only be an admin error on their part done at the beginning of the claim as I haven't updated my childcare information since them or been asked to. I am now very worried that I'm going to end up owing a huge amount of money.

Before anyone says didn't I realise from the breakdown the figure was wrong, honestly the answer is no. As the money has stayed pretty much the same year on give, give or take a bit less for small salary increases which I have notified them of, I don't even check the breakdown as the monthly figure is what I expect it to be. Looking at the breakdown, as I have now, it is pretty confusing as some parts are weekly and the rent part is monthly. I provided the exact same information to the child tax credit department, so am not a fraudster trying to get extra money or anything like that!

I'm really looking for some advice on what to expect here and whether I have to accept all the responsibility for this when I proveded the correct figures and documentation and the error is an administrative one at their end. I'm very worried. It's hard enough to make ends meet as is.

No, it's just application that is different.

If it's an official mistake, and there was no reasonable way for the OP to know that it was a mistake, then the OP doesn't have to pay it back - the council should write off the overpayment and adjust the claim to the correct amount now.

Most councils would refute this by saying the OP did know that it was wrong, because she's (presumably) had regular statements from them showing that they were using incorrect information, and she didn't correct them.

It will come down to how obvious the error was, what the total overpayment is, and how it occurred. For a few grand, if the council has an iffy case based solely on the claimant not checking the forms, they might decide to write it off and not fight it. Other councils fight everything.

OP, do the forms show the incorrect childcare amount? Do they show the same amount all the way back, or does it change at some point? (I know you said you didn't update them, but it's possible someone else took evidence of a change to their childcare fees and they misapplied it to your claim or something).

They will calculate what you should have been getting, and what the overpayment is. Most overpayments are now recovered from the benefit itself, so you'll receive less each month, but it is possible to set up a DD instead. You'll have to pay by DD if the rent goes directly to your landlord.

The law here is very tricky. PP is right that the law (Housing Benefit Regulations 2006, Regulation 100) states that recovery should not be undertaken of any "overpayment caused by an official error where the claimant or a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made could not, at the time of receipt of the payment or of any notice relating to that payment, reasonably have been expected to realise that it was an overpayment" and the overpayment wasn't caused by giving the wrong information to the council.
However, I'm not convinced that the OP could have been reasonably expected to know. The numbers and calculations provided by the council are often very sparse (so the claimant doesn't have all the calculation/detail provided) and the rules can be very confusing. I would argue that expecting the claimant to recalculate the numbers of the claim to make sure that the council hasn't made a mistake goes beyond what a claimant should reasonably be expected to do-and so the overpayment shouldn't be recovered.

Hi just wanted to say I work for HB and know just how confusing those benefit decision letter are I have been on both sides of the fence and have been pushing for them to be changed as they are awful.
If you have provided the correct info and they have made the error you can reasonably request not to have to repay and also there is an appeals process that you can use.
Most local authorities use a scan system to enter your documents into so this will be on your file ask them to print and send you a copy of that record. I would advise if you are asked to pay it back to get your mp involved .
Where I work this suspension can take and usually does take 28 days to sort out x
If you find you get no joy from phone staff ask for manager escalation or email the councils chief executive this often helps things speed up
Hope it's gets sorted out soon for you .

Cross post. Of course Anchor is also right that some councils fight everything. I have seen some councils provide calculation sheets that are positively skeletal in their detail. Only the OP would know whether or not the calculation sheets state the incorrect amount. Of course, if they do and she hasn't been checking them then the council do have more of a leg to stand on.

The letters in my la are very clear and while we would accept that someone would not know if appicable amounts are wrong , or whether our decision about bedroom tax was correct , we would not accept that if the letters show childcare £200 per week that the claimant couldn't see it was wrong.

I guess maybe just my la then.
It's usually comes down to reasonableness ie could you reasonably be expected to have realised the error and did you provide the correct requested information .
My experience thus far has been That when the error has been shown wholly to be the fault of the council then the overpayments have been written off .
I can't say this will definately happen for you just letting you know my own experience with this type of thing x ( writing this I can actually mentally picture the codes on our system to show these write offs)

It will boil down to whether the OP's statements actually show the £200 a week/£800 a month childcare or not.

OP? Do you have one you can look at?

The argument is about 'reasonably be expected to know' most lay people close out the link and seek advice when you have their decision. I would have been able to argue it for you when I did this for my job. And councils do not have discretion on this bit of the regulations. They have to follow guidance on it. Which is huge. HB do make mistakes.

Sorry, typo- most lay people wouldn't and check out the link

OP, do the forms show the incorrect childcare amount? Do they show the same amount all the way back, or does it change at some point? (I know you said you didn't update them, but it's possible someone else took evidence of a change to their childcare fees and they misapplied it to your claim or something). I don't have all of the forms for the beginnig of the claim, but I assume this must be the case as the payments have been fairly similar give or take £50 or so for the whole period.

AnchorDownDeepBreath The statement says, the childcare payment of 3200 is not used in your calculatiion, the disregarded amount from your imcome is £175. This appears directly under my rent which is a monthly not weekly figure with something about 65% of excess income. It's very confusing. I can't remember what I thought 4 years ago when I looked at it, but looking at it now, it looks as if the disregard is monthly as it doesn't state weely and is under my rent which has not been calculated weekly. It's all very confusing, but it looks like I will have to pay it back as it is on there, just not clearly.

With the tax credits, there is a clear breakdown for you to check and it's much more straightforward.

*£200 not 3200

It has to be clearly shown so that a lay person could understand it. If the letter is confusing then you have a point and can argue it. The letters should show the calculation clearly. I would wait till they make a decision and then ask for the overpayment to be written off. If they refuse ask again. Follow the procedure s they will tell you how it works. They have a duty to provide the calculation to you in clear manner. If they haven't done this they should be challenged. Good luck

Thank you

Housing benefit issue , change of circumstances of work job but an overpayment has happened of around 15000 pounds to pay back instalents due to overpayment , I cannot understand why housing say people cannot have savings over a certain amount to claim housing rents help then give the families needing housing a bill of 150000 pound over a three year period owing back to housing surely they realise a family won't have savings to cover the 150000 pound payback bill if their savings cannot be more than a certain amount why is there one idea here and a rule of payback of 15000 pounds putting families in debt and years to pay back affecting the first the parent , the 2nd child and third child having housing allowing it to rise past 7000 knowing the fact people don't have savings of over 7000 then handing them a bill for 15000 pound and asking the families to pay for it giro when housing get the figures wrong how wrong us that why didn't housing admin check out the amount totaling up in that year and realise a person cannot pay this back and look at the claim and stop the overpayment value going up this is happening to thousands of families also why is it when a couple is in a joint house that they only have one on the claim form only normally the wife with kids and if an overpayment happens the role goes back to the women how many women are the ones put their names down on a housing claim form only to have the overpayments go back to them as one name can only be used on the claim form how unfair is this figures are taken on family income , as a whole should be joint name the housing is in on the claim they take the joint income yet put it in a womans name getting her in debt for the overpayment usually its them applying for the housing help but didn't help if the housing let that rise for a three year period without thinking that's a high amount and flagging the situation so don't cause a claiment problems to pay back why is that ? Admin here with housing is badly managed ! If a customer had 15000 pounds spare they would do a help to buy and get a home not ask for a loan because of errors in housing , the claims should be in joint names on screen and a set overpayment fee not raised to 15000 pounds as overpayments who in this world on a standard national average wage can afford to include the overpayments budget of housings errors department into their wages when on low income this idea of one person on the agreement is usually the woman one sided and its her and her kids that suffer health wise having to live low income after housing overpayments so not just the parent the kids also going into this world to work in a career with reduced health due to standards of low income where parents are having to pay housing overpayments to administration issues its a sad state of affairs to be in for England having these problems out there with no stop point of sense

Cannot also understand why housing for some reason cannot data share properly with the job centre over universal credits that clients claiming these have to go tell one place and go to the council to report again , documents passed through scanners up to housing department a second time when they could data share the same information they rely on customers sending evidence through Google photos personal data in effect a customer coming away from data protection walking out a doorway and into Google sharing photos onto a cloud base surely having data shared with a government building department is somewhat safer than Google internet and this third party idea not to mention it takes due to Google photo upload proof of wage slips takes only 16 mb to be able to upload for a customer so in effect the client who's claiming has to sit on a phone for at least 3,hours uploading to cloud or failing this walk into scanner department itself which open 10 till 2, the Google cloud isn't as safe as the data protection between government buildings departments so in effect breaks the safety of documents how sad is this and if clients don't empty their mobile phones of the data private its sat on it till they re format phone how can we stop this problem its rather worrying easier to data share from government buildings to building or simply get figures for housing direct from either an employer p60 sent over to housing department or a self employed person or a benefit claiment , how much truer the result would this be safer wiser and no overpayments to families let's face it we are all on some kind of way of being paid whether its work related or benefit roll the easy way and data share safely and get the right figures without putting families into debt

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Sorry couldn’t read it.

@Ladybird 382 I couldn't read your posts as they are way too long and no punctuation, however this is an old thread

Sometimes I wish people wouldn't comment and offer advice if they don't know the rules. This is a two part thing. Firstly the mistake needs to have been made by the local authority, so an official error, and secondly that you could not have reasonably known that they had made such an error.

You need to be able to show on the balance of probability that you could not reasonably have known.

Don't be put off appealing this if the local authority say you have to pay it back. They almost always try to get you to pay it back because most people think they must be right and don't know the rules.

Appeal. If you need to know the rules they are available online or you could buy yourself a copy of CPAG welfare benefits and tax credits handbook, and read the section on this.

You can also obtain a copy of your housing benefit file using a subject access request. Ask for everything from the time you made the initial claim. They then have to provide everything and you can go through the file to see what documents you provided. This is very helpful if you need to go to a tribunal.

If you need further info, pm me.

It is your responsibility to read the letters very carefully to make sure all the figures are correct.

Whilst the letters are complicated, many people don’t read them..

That said

Write an appeal,
Use a budget sheet and apply for DHP if you’re in hardship
Set out an amount now to start paying back the overpayment
Visit CAB to see if they can help

Thank you for your help here I am taking this further as its not my fault here all things was reported , somehow a lady in housing department haven't noted it down on records as they share two different offices Essex housing and housing claiments and housing don't check whether the clients are as a Tennant or a private rented tenant its all confusing within the housing departments as they don't data share the same way hence confusing the customers who have housing claims and recording the information down from calls isn't happening between the two departments as ones a call centre area

I doubt they are legally allowed to data share 😑

But in your position I would search for the legislation they use, available online - go through it and see if the benefits department did everything correctly

ZOMBIE

They made a mistake on mine 10 years ago. When I first claimed they totally forgot to put me down as receiving 25% single persons discount. Their letters are so complex to read and understand and they also send out 4 x 4 pages all with different amounts each month on so I felt it wasn’t reasonable to place the blame on me for not noticing it. 3 years ago they did a random audit and found the error, and sent me an overpayment letter for £3,000.
I tried to argue with them over it but I’ve been paying it back ever since and will be so for a very very long time!