Struggling with Moral Decision - Property

[Martin10]

Hi all,

Cut a long story short my sister and I share a property 50/50. My Mum went into a care home two years ago and she has moved her daughter and son in law in. I haven't lived at the property for over 20 years and she has lived there all her life. My Mum had next to no mortgage, £50 per month which was paid off years ago so my Sister has contributed towards the bills but basically nothing else. My Mum has always supported my sister financially and I've never asked for any help.

We don't have a good relationship and it is now the case with her daughter unfortunately, brain washed by her Mum.

As her daughter is now living there I wish to sell my share of the property to her, or they pay me rent which I am entitled to I have learnt, actually it's my Sister who should pay me rent but clearly it will be them.

I do not wish to sell the property but can if none of this is resolved.

The money if attained will be invested for my children's future.

My Sister has never had any financial responsibility and her daughter and son in law want to live their rent free which is great for them.

I always said I would not do anything while my sister was there on her own.

They're now calling me all the names under the sun and telling me I cannot force a sale which in fact I can but have not lowered my self to their level. Even had the son in law texting me telling me if I push to hard nothing will happen.

I have explained my case and this has been going on since May 2015. I have now instructed a solicitor as they're taking the the p**s out of me.

People I have spoken to understand my situation and agree that I am making the right decision but I still don't feel comfortable with this.

Some feedback would be appreciated on people feelings and ideas on this situation.

It was gifted in 2001 and my Mum had a stroke in 2006 so no idea this would be happening.

Although a gift, I still have to pay capital gains, where my sister won't as she lived there as her main residence.

I have decided to cut all ties, even if they move out I will still eventually force a sale, 6 months is a good ide to give her time to find another place.

My sister will end up with half the proceeds so won't be left homeless, £200k towards renting or a purchase isn't to bad for never having a mortgage.

Yes, they'll have a big deposit (at the very least) for the next house, and they'll own 100% of that, not 50% of it.
I'd rather have the security of knowing that a smaller house was completely mine.

They don't see it like that, I'm the big bad wolf who just wants money.

It's not about that it's the principal.

Just moving them in during Feb 2015 without letting me know was a cheek, even my Mum didn't know, moved her room around and all living their with no financial commitment.

I too am somewhat concerned about the fact your mum did actually benefit for years after she 'gifted' the property. In inheritance tax terms this is a gift with reservation.

I would be careful if you sell the house that you and your sister have an agreement that if the council come after you for the funds it will be paid back. There really is a need to alert your solicitors of this possibility and have that clarified.

I really think the Council will not allow you to have this money and that they will insist it be used to fund your mother's care.The entire question of the dispute may be moot because neither you, nor your sister or her daughter are entitled to anything.

The CGT and IHT implications are equally complex.

I have asked the question again and hopefully my solicitor will know the answer.

The property was gifted in 2001 and my understanding after looking in to this is that my Mum had no idea she was going to have a stroke 5 years after said gift, so they have to prove it was to avoid such an event which clearly they can't.

Where do you live now? Could you move in to the house too!? If their argument is that it's 'their home'' then (officially to save on rent or to rent out your own place to save money), move in for a while and make it your home too, that way it'll take the wind out of the ''our home'' argument and .move things along a bit.

People are getting gift with reservation rules and deprivation of assets confused. Both of which are more complicated anyway if one of the donors is living there.

I wouldn't be worried about deprecation of assets if OP's mother was healthy when the gift was made 14 years before she needed care.

GROB not relevant if house and other assets under the nil rate band and easyish to get around if sister and mother sharing the household.

The moral question isn't an issue for me. OP's sister sounds like a proper nightmare and I'd sell in a heartbeat. The sister will get a good amount of money and be able to start over.

OP I was thinking about you in the shower and you also need to get some CGT advice assuming that (a) you and your sister own the house outright without a trust and (b) the 2001 value was a fair bit lower than today.

I live with my family, 40-50 minutes away, there are four of us and could not move in to the 3 bedroom bungalow which already has two rooms occupied, plus the third room is full of all their crap.

The house hasn't really been maintained and was built in the 1940's and has damp. The longer they all live their my concern is the more the house will depreciate as it needs a lot spending on it to bring it up to standard and over the years most repairs have been bodged.

I did think at one point of letting the third room to a nightmare tenant but that's just lowering myself to there level.

My Mum is literally a 5 minute walk away from the bungalow and my Sister does visit every day after work. I on the other hand visit every two weeks but their is a lot of history why we are not close and even when I visit and talk about my family my Mum cuts me off to talk about my Sister and her daughter, so that kind of hurts. I also run my own business so am very busy most of the time.

What doesn't help is that I have been quite successful in recent years since starting my own business and I think my sister is very jealous as she, although the intelligent one of the family didn't achieve what she should have done, my sister has the brains of the family just never put it to use.

As cold as this sounds I want to just get rid of them all, I have very little relationship with any of them, even less now, but I still feel sorry for my Mum as my sister goes running to her telling her what a horrible man I am, which she shouldn't as this just upsets her.

When my Mum first moved in to the home, I asked my sister a simple question, how are you going to afford to live their on your own, the next day I visited my Mum and she was crying saying why are you kicking your sister out on the street, when I approached my sister about this she just said my Mum gets confused, doubt that very much. Very manipulative and always has been.

With regard to CGT, yes I understand as long as I invest the money, my accountant tells me I can carried the CGT forward so my estate handles this and pays as and when the time comes for me to depart this world. He is also double checking for me with the HMRC.

Glad you're getting advised on the CGT. Rolling over/holding over gains might be possible.

It sounds to me like your mind's made up, and based on your sister's behaviour I can see why. Cut your losses I say! (Sorry if that sounds harsh)

I think you need a Chartered Tax Advisor and not a solicitor. No inkling of ill health does not prevent gift with reservation rules. YOU will owe CGT your MUM will owe IHT. It's a double dip tax due to the avoidance!

.. within the IHT rules (NRB etc), but the asset is added back into the estate. That or you can lie to HMRC.

I don't know as much about care situations, but I do know there is no time limilt on the council. Your mum lived there and unless she paid market rate rent, you all knew what you were trying to do.

I know no tax advisers who do care fees advice but that must be just round here, which is why most people come to solicitors (like me) or later life financial advisers.

I think your interpretation of the CRAG rules must be different to mine but then neither of us have all the facts.

OP has already said she's getting CGT advice. I stand by my statement that IHT very unlikely to be an issue thanks to exemption from GROB for co-occupying co-owners plus NRB to cover OP's share.

I'm pretty sure the OP is not suggesting that she lies to HMRC.

although my Sister was my Mums carer, she still worked from 8am to 4pm and cared for my Mum in the morning and after work, ghad carers in three times a day to help, in the end it was only the evening and weekends that my sister cared for her. Would not give up her job which I under and as was a break for her.

I really don't think you understand how hard it is to be a carer. Thee is no 'only' to it

So my Sister responded with a letter saying they can't afford to pay me rent as they're saving for a year so they can move out come August 2016.

Sick of this, told solicitor they pay me market rate rent, plus backdated from when they moved in and if they can't then it comes off the value of my sisters half and sell the place come September 2016.

They just won't compromise, even had the audacity to state I have never paid towards the utility bills, even though I haven't lived there for over 20 years.

Have not once offered me any rent, even if they said we can only afford X but haven't, just not willing to pay.

Aarrgghh!!!!!

Easy then, if they are saving to move out, sell the place and they can do it more quickly. Nice letter back advising as much.

Btw get independent advice re:tax. Some right old 'bloke down the pub' cobblers gets spouted on here mixed in with the good stuff.

My Mums house is rented out and that goes towards paying the care home fees. That's the only way I know of not having to sell the property and following the Council rules.
I don't know how they've got the cheek to expect you to put up with this and I agree they're taking the piss.

Given everything I would push for a sale now. They are never going to change. This date has been pushed back and back again, wedding, then September etc.

Get rid of the property and cut any ties. Life is too short to have your head filled with this shit. Ask yourself, what does this person add to my life? And then, what does it cost me to have this person in my life?

When you consider that, you are better off without them. Just because you share parents doesn't mean you have to get along with someone. And no, I am not bitter about my siblings I have two lovely sisters.