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'My' shares have been taken off me.

10 replies

Troglod · 22/09/2014 03:58

Hello, this is my first post so I apologise in advance for any mistakes. Also, I understand this comes under 'first-world problems', but I would genuinely value anyone's view on this problem.
Long story short... My uncle put shares of one of his companies into my name when I was approx 15. My sister has shares too. We were never given a shares certificate or received any dividends or anything like that. It was kind of him to do that but I assume it was mostly done for tax reasons. I was never sure of the legalities of it all, and so was unsure they were really mine or if they could be taken out of my name at any time. Since the shares were put in my name my uncle has had other children and I thought perhaps he would have transferred them into their names or something like that. However, over the years my uncle or grandparents have mentioned the shares as though they were still coming to myself and my sister. There has never been a time or amount mentioned.
A few months ago the company I have shares in was sold. My uncle asked me to email him my signature so he could copy it on some documents to do with the sale. He said other family members had signed the same documents. I emailed him my signature and then phoned my sister to ask what it was she had signed. She did not know what it was! She had signed without reading it. She said our uncle had told her 'the shares were gone'. Obviously I thought that was a bit strange.
We have been waiting for the sale of company to go through to see what, if anything will come of it. I haven't asked my uncle about it because he isn't the kind of person you can ask.
Today my mum tells me my uncle wants to set up a foundation with the money and for myself, one of his children and his P.A's daughter to run it. This is a bit weird and random to say the least, I have no experience of such things. Apparently the deal would include that the foundation would pay for the education of any children the three of us may have. The foundation will also pay off the remainder of our mortgages but on our deaths our properties are to be sold with half going back into the foundation. This doesn't seem like much of a 'deal' to me as I will be 39 in a few months and have no children and my flat is 2/3 paid for already.
My question really is am I missing something here? It feels like I'm being told I can't have the money (don't know the amount) but I can help decide which charities get it instead. It doesn't feel like much of a deal to me. I do not have much money myself at all, in fact, I am struggling quite a lot. Am I being very spoilt, ungrateful?

I'm sorry this is so long, I couldn't think how to make it shorter. Thank you for taking the time to read through it.

OP posts:
NoArmaniNoPunani · 22/09/2014 04:42

I expect he wanted your signature so he could sign away your right to the shares. Whether that's legal I'm not sure as he has possibly forged your signature. It sounds like your uncle put shares in your name as some kind of tax loophole rather than because he wanted to do something nice for his nieces.

I would have no part of the foundation if I were you. It's of no benefit to you. So you are faced with the dilemma of whether you should take your uncle to court for forging your signature. It's a tough one. I had a similar issue with my dad taking money that he had put away in my name. In the end I didn't pursue him for the money but I don't speak to him any more (for more reasons than just that)

Troglod · 22/09/2014 08:02

Thank you for your response. It's a big relief to read your comment. I thought I was going nuts. No, I don't think I will take him to court, or anything like that. My extended family would be really upset if I did. I think they would blame me for being money-grabbing and causing problems before they blamed my uncle for anything.
I'm very sorry something similar happened to you. It must be a lot worse when it's your dad who does it. I have thought about not seeing some family members any more too. This kind of behaviour doesn't spring up from nowhere, other stuff has happened too. I suppose there are some people in the world who like to make you grateful for something, dangle it in front of you for a couple of decades, then take it back! It's about control and mind games.
Did no one in your family say anything to your dad? Or stand up for you in any way?

OP posts:
riksti · 22/09/2014 10:54

The only thing I can think of that would make it (slightly more) legal is if the shares weren't given directly to you but put into a trust with you as a beneficiary. In that case it is possible that you wouldn't see any money from dividends or the sale of the shares, although the funds would have to be used for your benefit.

Forging your signature doesn't seem to really fit this theory, though. However, unless you get to see the relevant paperwork I don't think you'll ever find out what's been going on. And based on what you've said you would at least have to threaten legal action for anything to be made clear.

Troglod · 22/09/2014 12:07

Thank you riksti. So, in theory, if shares are in a persons name they should to go to that person (be used for their benefit) unless they sign them away? Sorry if it is a stupid and basic question. Over all these years I have thought perhaps as they were given as a gift my uncle could take them back or give them to someone else instead. Another scenario is that perhaps he would decide to give me part of their value. In theory would that be legal?
I understand the documents I have 'signed' (or allowed him to sign for me) may have given him back the shares which makes the questions above somewhat irrelevant.

When he asked me to email him my signature to copy he said it was to enable the sale (something like that).
Because I do not understand how shares work I have tended to view this problem on moral grounds. Morally he earnt the money and doesn't have to give me any, so I guess he can change his mind. But, obviously I'm very upset about being manipulated. My mum (the uncle is her brother), my grandparents and my sister have NO CLUE whatsoever about the legalities and they hardly seem to notice he has done something a bit wrong or dodgy.
My partner looked on Companies House for a shareholders register. Mine and my sister's names are listed but the address given as ours is a very old one. My cousin's details have been updated very recently to her new married name and address.

I don't think I would threaten legal action. I haven't even asked him a direct question ''are the shares in my name? Will I get the full amount they are worth, or a half or quarter?'' My uncle can be very aggressive, especially in business matters... and, to be honest I am scared to discuss it. Yep, I know that is not an adult response. I don't think my family members would defend me at all. I'm not money-grabbing. I realise I did not earn these shares. I am more concerned with the deceit. For 20 years my grandparents have been telling me how lucky I am and how grateful I should be, but now the assurances have come to nothing they don't say a word to defend me and expect me to behave as though nothing has happened at all!
I appreciate your earlier response and information very much. It is a big help just to hear that I'm not ungrateful and crazy.

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 22/09/2014 12:16

Look the company up on the Companies House website
wck2.companieshouse.gov.ukwcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo
or on Duedil (which is more informative)
www.duedil.com/

PetraArkanian · 22/09/2014 12:23

Tbh I think you do need to get a lawyer involved as you have no idea what else he has signed for you. Even if you don't want the shares these is no way he should have just chopped your signature onto the docs. I would suggest that you contact him to say that you are unhappy about this being done in this way, and that you will be challenging any paperwork with your name on that you haven't seen and signed in person. At least then you will see what is going on and what you have signed away/gained. But if the shares were in your name that belong to you (tax dodge or not) and they are your to do what you want with. If you decide you want to give them back to him/sell them that's up to you but he can't sell them and keep the money for himself without your signature/permission.

riksti · 22/09/2014 13:12

If they were in a trust then you'd need to see the trust deed to know what can be done with the shares in different circumstances. However, the fact that your name shows on the shareholders register seems to imply the shares belonged to you personally. Trusts are usually identified by the names of the trustees (the people designated to safeguard the assets in the trust) not the beneficiaries (people benefitting from the trust) on the company's annual returns.

Depending on your other income and assets this situation may have potential of coming back and biting you tax-wise. If dividend was paid over on your shares then potentially there would have been income tax due (if you were a higher rate taxpayer in the year of the payment). The fact that the cash never came to you doesn't interest HMRC if the paperwork shows that it should have done. If the sale of your shares was in your name there could be capital gains tax to pay, again - depending on the amounts involved and on your income for the tax year of the sale. Again, the fact you never saw the money will most likely not worry HMRC. They will still chase for the capital gains tax. If your shares, or the cash received from them after the sale have now been signed over to your uncle as a gift then this will potentially have inheritance tax implications, should you die in the next 7 years and have other assets worth over £300k.

Like I said, it all depends on the amounts involved - if the shares were only worth £100 and didn't pay any dividend then you don't need to worry. But if they were worth a significant amount then there is potentially a problem. Of course, you don't really know. You don't know if any dividend was paid and you don't know (I'm assuming) how much your shares were actually worth at the point of sale. As a shareholder you should know all this info but this is not the case. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like you would ever get this info without involving solicitors and incurring costs.

Now, whether HMRC ever discovers anything like his has been going on, is anyone's guess. They should have this information and the ability to put it together but often don't actually do that. I'm sure a lot of issues like yours slip through the cracks all the time. So I wouldn't worry unduly but maybe you could use the potential tax liability hanging over your head as a bargaining chip to try and find out what's been going on.

Troglod · 22/09/2014 17:57

Dear PetraArkanian and Riksti, thank you both for your advice. I will consider all my options carefully. I have asked an online solicitor for advice.

The shares certificate does not mention any trustees. My partner found a document where some shares from the same company were recently sold. He thought he could work out the value of each share by the Stamp Duty paid. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but if correct the shares in my name would be worth about £300,000. My earnings are low but I own a small flat in London, so I think the HMRC 'angle' is very valid.
Thank you so much for your advice and understanding. Honestly when I posted this question I braced myself for comments on how ungrateful I am... this is the response I am used to from my extended family so I wanted to test the water and confirm if my feelings are way-off. It is a massive relief to feel that I am not being completely unreasonable.

OP posts:
PetraArkanian · 24/09/2014 20:31

Glad you are talking to a solicitor but I do suggest you get as good one rather than a random internet person. And yes, if the shares are worth that much you are in deep trouble if hmrc find out and want tax off you. Have you thought of calling companies house for advice?

And if your family have a go at you point out that it's nothing to do with the share value as such but the fact your uncle is not only not telling you stuff, but he s committing fraud and putting you in a position where you will be in serious tax trouble. Is up to you to decide whether you should keep the shares/money or not (personally I think you should) but whichever you decide it needs to be done properly and legally! Not with scanned signature s and no information...

naty1 · 26/09/2014 14:21

No way he should have signed it for you, could easily have posted/ emailed signed and posted back.
He didnt want you to read it.
Yes Cgt and tax on any dividend he paid himself.
Read the company annual reports.
It may say the dividends paid.

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