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Original poster

ADVICE NEEDED - taking ex employers to COURT and they've LIED on personnel file!!!

29 replies

HellyBelly · 10/03/2006 11:21

Some of you are already aware my dh was dismissed from his job on Christmas Eve and since then we've been trying to put a case together with our solicitor for Discrimination again a Disability.

Anyway, dh asked for his personnel file over a month ago and stated within 14 days (as per solicitors advice). 7 days later he got a letter saying it would be sent in due course. We thought this was odd because all they should have to do is get it, photocopy it and send. Well, it finally arrived this morning (after he chased them) and it's full of lies. They've invented a verbal warning that never happened and there are pages and pages of notes that we just know they have written up since requesting the file - lots of lies!

They put in their letter than they have not been playing delay tactics and that it's their busy workload that stopped them sending it sooner - we KNOW it's because they had lots to make up before they sent it.

What is the point in asking for a file if they are going to get the chance to make stuff up???!!! Where do we stand now???

Dh still hasn't got a new job and we are now worried we'll not even be able to take them to court now - any advice???? :(

BTW, we have called solicitor but he's busy until Tues!

OP posts:
MrsBigD · 10/03/2006 11:38

no legal expertise I'm afraid but bumping it for you. Got kicked myself with dubious reasons so know what it feels like.

As for the made up lies... I'm guessing he'll have the burdon of proof or rather disproving them. Has he got any former colleagues that would substantiate that those things are made up? Guessing not though as they'll probably be worried about their jobs.

BUMP

krabbiepatty · 10/03/2006 11:49

I would do as much as you can to check the dates of the invented items - where was your DH on those days? What else was happening at the time? that kind of thing. When you speak to ypour solicitor you might want to discuss putting pressure on the employer to let you inspect the originals and if they are computer files you may ultimately be able to get confirmation of when they were created, their amendment history and so forth.

Original poster
HellyBelly · 10/03/2006 11:55

Thanks - i will get dh to think about the dates but funny enough, the documents were hand written - wonder why eh??!!

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Kathlean · 10/03/2006 14:16

Doesn't your DH have to sign any paperwork regarding warnings to prove he has received and is aware of them? Stating that he agrees and accepts the warning and the reasons etc.

I don't know where you would find out if this is right but I'm pretty sure they cannot put something like this on him file without giving him the right to approve/dispute it.

Sorry that's all I can offer to help.

Original poster
HellyBelly · 10/03/2006 16:07

Thanks for that :) Someone else has mentioned this on another thread.

Does anyone know if this is law to countersign a verbal warning?

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Debbiethemum · 10/03/2006 16:19

I don't know for definate but I think you have to countersign warnings etc. I once had a letter of something - can't remember what it was called but the one down from verbal warning. I refused to countersign as it was full of lies and exaggerations a bit was true but not nearly as bad as in the letter. Boy did that create a fuss and I had to sign a letter saying I refused to sign.

krabbiepatty · 10/03/2006 16:35

There is no law to that effect but it would be good practice.

Original poster
HellyBelly · 10/03/2006 16:41

Great, was hoping that would sort the problem! So it's their word against ours :(

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krabbiepatty · 10/03/2006 16:45

Yes, but the worse their procedures look the worse their credibility is likely to be. Most people find it very hard to deliver complete fabrications convincingly in a court or tribunal context.

Freckle · 10/03/2006 16:47

It might be useful to analyse the whole file. E.g. are all the lies handwritten by one person, but stuff you don't disagree with typed by someone else, etc. Does the handwritten stuff refer to anything you can disprove, such as people who could confirm that no such thing happened, for example. You'd really only need to show they had lied once and the tribunal would be unlikely to believe anything they said at all after that. They frown quite heavily on employers acting in an underhand way and, if the employers haven't followed statutory procedure in dealing with employees, they can be ordered to pay punitive damages.

Does your dh have a staff booklet detailing disciplinary procedures? If so, have they followed it? Things like that can be very useful in a tribunal.

Freckle · 10/03/2006 16:48

Oh and I agree with kp. Quite a few people might be prepared to lie in writing, but would be terrified of giving verbal evidence to support that. Even if they were willing, they are unlikely to be convincing unless they are consummate actors.

Original poster
HellyBelly · 10/03/2006 16:56

All of the stuff is handwritten by the director (small company of around 12 staff - wife is HR - relatives work there too so hard to get people to help)

Will see if he can actually disprove anything. I'll ask about staff booklet, if that's like the terms and conditions of employment then they state a verbal warning, written warning then final warning (although we believe that as he's been there less than a year, they don't have to follow it??? what's the point in having these procedures then!!!)

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ThePrisoner · 10/03/2006 18:25

My dh reckons you should flag it up to the police as it is fraudulent! Handwriting analysis would prove when notes were written.

lars · 10/03/2006 18:56

Hellybelly, how awful for your DH.
Good advice about dates and time as where was he on that day,etc. Who was present at the interviews and can only one confirm it.

So it now frauding a personnel file, who's name on it. I'm sure the solicitor can offer you some good advice and this mut happen alot. larsxx

waterfalls · 10/03/2006 19:01

Verbal and written warnings must be signed, by the person recieving them, they mean nothing otherwise, I am positive of this I have done a disiplinary managment course. HTH.

waterfalls · 10/03/2006 19:02

Also when recieving disiplinary, both parties must have a witness.

waterfalls · 10/03/2006 19:14

\link{http://www.workmatters.co.uk/disciplinary-procedures.htm\here} under the heading WARNINGS it states it is essential the employee has a witness.

Mimsie · 10/03/2006 19:15

DH says they don't legally have to be signed...

But he says he'd go for (a bit like theprisoner's hubby suggested) asking your solicitors to write to them requesting not the photocopy but the originals as you wish to have them tested... hopefully that should be enough to scare them.

donnie · 10/03/2006 19:21

I thought it was a statutory requirement that all persons receiving any sort of warning have to have a witness with them and also sign a document accepting the warning.Also think that it's a great idea to tell your dh's ex employees you are going to get the handwritten documents tested to establish exactly when they were written.If they really were written just over the last few days they won't have a leg to stand on.
Good luck - horrid situation for you all.

Mimsie · 10/03/2006 19:56

Arg DH asked how long he'd worked there and i remember reading less than a year so it doesnt matter anyway... He has no employment rights as such. But the discrimination is another issue...

Still if you can find some discrepancies in the file it will show dishonesty which would probably help

Mercedes · 10/03/2006 23:26

have you tried to contact the Disability Rights Commission? I don 't know if they would be any use but their website has examples of where the DRC has got involved in employment matters and legal cases.

www.drc-gb.org

Original poster
HellyBelly · 13/03/2006 13:03

Thanks everyone for all your posts, sorry for not replying sooner but I was away this weekend.

TP - can they really tell when a letter was written by hand then??? Shock

lars - there were no 'interviews' as such. Dh usually had an end of week meeting on a Friday and the worst it got was the director (his boss) saying that he was disappointed that he'd only got x amount of appointments that week (cold calling for appointments - sales job) - no talk of warnings etc!

waterfalls - no witnesses as it's all made up!

Mimsie - good idea to ask for originals to scare them :)

Mercedes - yes we have thanks. contacted them back in January and they said we should have a case for discrimination against a disability!

Hopefully we should get some help from the solicitor tomorrow!

Thanks again everyone :)

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wannaBe1974 · 14/03/2006 12:49

HB so sorry to hear what you have been going through.

Firstly, can I ask what the nature is of your DH’s disability? Also, apart from the fact that he was dismissed, were there any previous instances during the time your DH was employed with this company, where he felt he had been discriminated against? Did the company give a reason for his dismissal? Or was it just a general dismissal because of inability to meet targets etc? I’m guessing from your posts that he was dismissed before his probationary period with the company was up and therefore the company did maintain the right to terminate his contract.

I think that procedures such as having the handwriting annalised are very unlikely tbh. Where would you get it done, who would pay for it etc? And tbh it’s unlikely the police would get involved. Also, you need to bear in mind that settlements in unfair dismissal cases are usually not that high, a couple of thousdand pounds max usually.

If you are going to take this company to court for discrimination on the grounds of disability, your DH will need to produce evidence that he was discriminated against during the course of his employment. Were there any instances before your DH was dismissed where he felt that he had been discriminated against? Did he feel there was a chance that he would be dismissed before it actually happened? If the dismissal was the only thing that happened, then it will be very difficult to prove that he has been discriminated against. I would also only take the employer to court on those grounds if you are absolutely sure that it is discrimination, and you think you have a very good chance of winning a case. If you lose a discrimination suit, this could have serious repercussions for your DH’s future employment prospects. If an employer questions your DH’s previous employment history and contacts the company in question for info, it is likely they will waste no time in telling that employer that your DH “cried discrimination” and took them to court when he was dismissed, and this might put a future employer off employing him because he might be seen to be a trouble maker. I by no means agree with this but sadly that’s often the way employers think.

I’ve never been dismissed from a job but I have been very badly discriminated against because of my disability, and I had ample evidence which I could have used to take my employers to court, and they weren’t just a little organization they were a multi-national company. I thought very long and hard about doing it though, and in the end I decided not to because I didn’t want a reputation as someone who would cause trouble. I left the company and went on to have a successful career elsewhere.

If this company really have discriminated, then I think that is terrible and if you can take them to court with the help of an organization like the DRC, then good luck and I wish you the best. I didn’t want to totally come down on you and say that it’s not worth pursuing, but I do think that all things need to be taken into account. Good luck x

Original poster
HellyBelly · 14/03/2006 14:45

Hiya

Just quick reply as I need to go and wake mindee soon (childminder!)

Dh isn't disabled as such, it's a back problem that happens quite a lot and when it 'goes', he's incapacitated for a week or so usually. It's the Disability Rights Commission and our solicitor who have said to go for discrimination against a disability as they think he may have a case and we can't go for unfair dismissal as he wasn't there long enough.

Reason they gave for dismissal was under performing sales wise however this is why we are trying to fight it:

Without going into all the nitty gritty, his last working day was a really positive one and also, an email had been sent saying re-done targets for Dec & Jan as they were un-realistic etc. So last day (Friday) closed a deal so very happy boss. Monday, back went whilst brushing teeth - couldn't move - I had to help him go to the toilet etc (IN BED!). Anyway, Dr came out as is SOOOO much pain I kept thinking he was going to fit (this happens to him sometimes). Dr gave tons of pills and signed off for a week. Then Dr signed off another week. The following week he already had booked off as hadn't had holiday for ages and was last week before xmas so loads to do. We basically think his boss is annoyed that he didn't cancel his holiday. Maybe understandable to some people but dh was highly stressed and really needed the break (please don't think the 2 weeks off was having a break - it was HELL) plus it's no reason to sack someone! Even worse it had to be on xmas eve!

Whether or not he was still on probation is hard to confirm. His probation period was 3 months but the boss never got round to doing the confirmation and also never said he was extending it or anything like that so the 3 months was up but god knows what this means (he'd been there 4 months btw).

I know they don't have to follow the 3 steps disaplinary procedure for dismissal but tbh, that's irrelevant in this case so we've been told. My point was they are making stuff up on his file!

I know what you're saying about going to court and making things worse for future employment but we've been advised to just leave this last job of his CV!

Anyway, have to go. Thanks for your input :)

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Original poster
HellyBelly · 15/03/2006 11:47

I'm laughing my head off at the moment - dh is going through all bits on file as putting a full statement together for solicitor and one bit is so bloody funny - the idiot boss has written a note about dh supposedly saying that he felt not so good with targets compared to xxx and xxx - one of the xxx hadn't even joined the company @ the date on the file note Grin

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