how does one get power of attorney?

[ThatVikRinA22]

DS has aspergers among other things - he is 20.

he cannot control his spending, and he has just stolen money from my own bank account for the 3rd time. This is because he has run up debts that are now out of control. He had 3 pay day loan company loans (Wonga.com) with huge APR % and 2 credit cards maxed out. He also has 2 overdrafts to their limit.

i am now at my wits end with this and he has done this repeatedly.

He only works part time as he is doing a full time degree.

I was about to report him for theft this time, as i am so sick of it and so worried about his future because he simply cannot control his spending. He has nothing to show for his huge spends, its all spiralled out of control because he has taken loans to pay loans.

He has said he will do anything now to stop me reporting him. I think the only way to help him because he seems to have no capacity to understand what these loans mean is have him give me power of attorney.

How does this happen? How does he give me power of attorney? Is it a complex process and how much can i expect to pay?

my intention is to "train" him to manage his money better but until that time he is reckless and now, a thief, and will agree to this and i want to do it before he changes his mind. He has been in debt for 18 months and has only had a part time job for 2 years.

please can anyone tell me what the process involves?
cheers

Being a thief & being unable to control his own money are two very different things. Personally, if this is the third time he has stolen from you I would report it to the police -he's enough in control of himself to know he doesn't want this to happen. He can hand over his finances to you without any need for a power of attorney but I would definitely change your bank details if he can access your money so easily. TBH, I think if he were mine I'd be kicking him out!!!!

How did he get your bank details?

Form filling and it will cost about £350. Solicitor will do it for you both.

Information here

If your DS's behaviour is quite erratic and you are essentially saying that he is not capable of managing his own affairs, it doesn't sound as though power of attorney is what you want. If he has sufficient mental capacity and understanding to grant you such a power, he will continue to have the ability to manage his affairs along with you - power of attorney does not divest him of his ability to access his own bank accounts etc and it doesn't give you the right to take actions that he has not approved of.

What you might wish to consider is appointment as his Deputy via the Court of Protection. This would enable you to take over management of his financial affairs. The process requires you to prove that he is not capable of managing his own finances. It is impossible to give full and proper advice on an internet forum, but take a look at the guidance on direct.gov. Is what you want to essentially take over your DS's finances to the exclusion of his own control? If so, Power of Attorney won't have that effect. You would need Deputyship.

Feel free to PM me if you want to ask anything. I can't guarantee I will know the answer but I will try!

thank you gregs

he has no capacity to understand money. he just doesnt understand it-simple as that.

He is autistic.

i am a police officer and ive spoken to my sergeant about reporting him - im not going to do that, but i was going to take him into work with me, sit him in a cell, let him see what would happen if he does it again etc.

he is desperate to stop spending but he cant and has got himself into such a mess with loans upon loans, reporting him isnt going to help, taking over his finances will. He thought he could cope and sort it. he couldnt.

i have tried to do it without officialdom - he still has access to the internet and still got another credit card behind my back.

He had my bank card and knew my pin. The first time he did it he wrote a computer programme that topped up his mobile phone when it got to 50p - he didnt tell me and it drained an account.
the other 2 times he has taken my bank card. He took money out to pay his phone bill etc. He knows its stealing. He knows how angry i am, he knows i could report him and he knows he is lucky to still have a roof over his head.

Would power of attorney stop him being able to take out credit without my knowing?

because he has handed over all his bank/credit cards etc and then still taken out new credit without telling me.

No - giving you power of attorney only gives you the right to act on his behalf - it does not stop him acting on his own behalf if he is mentally competent

x posts!

thanks everyone - and rusty for the link.

thank you Emsy - that is very helpful and does indeed sound like what we need to do, rather than power of attorney.
he is in agreement.
he knows he cannot cope with finances now - the stealing has brought it all to a head. he does lack the mental capacity to understand his finances. he can write computer code, he has an A level in maths, but he cannot understand what %apr is or how debt gets bigger.

i may pm you later if thats in order - ive just come off nights so need a few hours sleep...
thank you.

just phoned a debt advisory service and they put me in touch with a solicitor - she will phone back tomorrow to advise on exactly what it is i need to do.

they will also talk to his creditors.

she says it does indeed sound like something i need to do through the court of protection - but unfortunately although DS can get legal aid i cant - and its me that will have to apply. bollocks.

wonder how much £££ this is gonna cost....i couldnt even pay my bloody car tax today thanks to his fleecing of my bank account

If you apply for appointment as a Deputy for a person who is unable to manage their own affairs, the fees payable are due by the patient not by the Deputy - so although you would have to pay if you wanted your own separate advice (e.g. advice about what it all involves, whether you should take it on or refer to Social Services etc - who will sometimes act as Deputy where there is nobody else to do it so I understand) you should not have the pay the costs of the application.

If your DS can't afford to pay the court fees for the application from his own funds, he may be able to get them abated (can't think of the right word but he may not have to pay, basically). Check with the solicitor if they are going to charge you for the initial advice or whether all their advice will be covered by legal aid as your DS is eligible .

I second the court of protection, its designed to deal with people who dont have the capacity to handle their own money, however that won't stop him finding "clever" possibly illegal ways to access money like in the examples you've given. If he can't access his own money might it make him more likely to try to get hold of it from other people like you?

oh lord.

spent the entire day on phone to various advisory bodies and eventually found a solicitor....but

even with either power of attorney or deputy of his finances through court of protection it wont stop him doing any of this again.

and the solicitor thinks he will pass the capacity test anyway. She says its for people who do not have the capacity to make decisions, and the test is done by a doctor and is prescriptive - if he seems to understand then he will pass it and i wont get deputyship anyway.

feeling so down right now about it all. nothing i can do will stop him from doing this again unless i have him a bankrupt marker on his credit record and at 20 im loathe to do that.

why is this so bloody impossible.

Do you think his poor financial management is due to his Aspergers and/or other conditions? If he is unable to make rational decisions as a result of a medically recognised condition then I don't see how that is different from, say, dementia, where you clearly can make a decision, but that decision is not necessarily logical or rational.

Anyhoo, it's not for a solicitor to be advising on whether he has capacity - I certainly would never have strayed into doing that when I was in practice! You as his mum know best whether he actually is incapable of managing his affairs due to a medical condition, or is just irresponsible/profligate (in which case Deputyship is not what you need).

Sorry that you are in such a sticky position. I'm not sure what the answer is, but certainly you should approach a medical professional with a copy of the form that they need to fill in for the Court of Protection application (COP3????) and see what their opinion would be and take it from there.

Have you got a locked cash box that you can keep your financial papers and cards etc secured in? Or even a safe? Just thinking about prevention - but you have no doubt already thought of all that .

i think he has no understanding of money, of debt, of stealing, of consequences and i think that is due to his aspergers.

i asked him tonight what he was thinking when he went out in the middle of the night to steal from my bank account.

he says he thought of nothing.

he got upset because i was angry with him. he has no bloody concept of why i got angry, or why its justifiable for me to be angry.

i am at a total loss as to what to do tbh. i fear for him.

If he is applying for the loans online, can you not password protect the computer and restrict his access to it so he only goes on when you can sit with him? Definitely don't give him your PIN and details for bank account, even if you decided eventually to report him for the theft you wouldn't be reimbursed for it by the bank as you knowingly disclosed your PIN.

It must be an awful situation for you to be in, but take heart that plenty of non-autistic 20 year olds get into debt with loan companies etc, and don't understand APR and interest even once it's explained to them (I've worked in retail banking and seen all sorts!) so he's definitely not alone in this situation.

Call his doctor and speak to them about the requirements for showing lack of capacity and Deputyship. It is the most obvious way of removing his control of his finances. Don't listen to a solicitor telling you whether he has capacity - (s)he is not qualified to judge that. If the doctor tells you he has capacity, then come back and post for someone with specific experience of this issue to see if we can find another way around it.

There is no requirement for a person to be so utterly incapacitated that they cannot make any decision - it's perfectly possible for a Deputy to involve and consult with a person whose affairs they manage. The Mental Capacity Act anticipates that some people will be able to make some decisions but not others. Take further (medical) advice on the question of capacity.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've always wondered whether it would be possible for the credit reference agencies to put some kind of alert on the file of consumers in cases such as this. This would allow you to highlight the problems that have occurred in the past and warn lenders not to provide credit to someone who will have great difficulty paying it back.

If any works for experian et al perhaps you could advise.

thanks emsy - the solicitor phoned back today but i missed the call - she says she has news....

lorna - the type of credit he is getting (wonga and the likes) do not use experian - i could put a marker on his experian file but it would only work for those reputable agents that use credit reference checks and the type he is using do not.

the only thing that would work would be a bankruptcy marker - which at 20 im loathe to do to him.

ill see what the solicitor says tomorrow - sounded like she had something to tell me.

im feeling quite ill with all this. trying to plod on at work etc but finding it so hard.