Of Mice and Malteasers - Itsjustafleshwound's book

[pooter]

Sorry for starting off this thread for you, but i had to post about the book! Imo only about one sixth of the way through, and i LOVE it!! It is a little bit more literary than my usual fodder, which is a nice change - i can feel my vocabulary growing with each chapter. What a bastard of a father they had.

Is it me being odd, or was there a reference to the psychiatrist in an episode of the simpsons, where homer repeats her name? (i know far more about the simpo's than i do about any novel )

Anyhoo, just thought id mention that its 2am and im just going to put the book down and go to sleep - but i dont want to!! Great choice - thanks

I don't watch the Simpsons, but I wouldn't be surprised!!

As I mentioned before, it is my all time favourite book!!

I am so pleased that you are enjoying it ...

Hi itsjusta
I finished it last night - after spending most of saturday curled up reading and avoiding my family. I won't say it was an enjoyable book, but i certainly couldn't put it down. I enjoyed his flowery language and detailed descriptions - it was very evocative - i feel like i have been shrimping myself now.

It made me feel very angry for all the injustices those children (and the mother) had to endure, and how it could have been so different for them if their mum had not been so worried about her (non existent) place in society.

I shed a few tears at the end - not sure why, just because it had come to an end and i had invested a lot of time and emotion in it.

Have you seen the film? I dont know if i want to - although part of me is interested to see what they have done with it.

So - talk to me about it!!

I read this book before I had children and I think the injustices faced by the children would have rankled more ... In retrospect,perhaps not the best choice of subject matter ..

However, I do think it is extraordinarily well written book - the characterisation is good, the descriptions of the South and the dark humour ...

The film was an absolute travesty - the role of Tom was played by N Nolte (total miscast in my opinion!!) and was just corny ...

In spite of the darkness of the book, I think the fact that it didn't have a completely Hollywood, happy ever after ending made it better.

I am sorry that it wasn't a total success - will try harder ...

OH NO!! Dont say sorry!

It was a totally absorbing read and i will be recommending it to my mum, its just that i'm a real emotional sponge and just seem to suck up any bad feelings in any book like i have experienced them myself - its not the book - its me! (hence my preference for books in which bugger all happens!)

I am really glad you chose that book. I have been thinking about it on and off since i read it. I think its good for me to read something that i wouldnt necessarily choose myself due to my avoidance tactics

I dont see Tom as Nick Nolte at all - not Lowenstein as Barbara Streisand .

Oh, i wanted to ask you what happened to Tolitha - did she disappear or did i miss what happened to her. she must have died by the end but it passed me by. I also want to know what happened to Lowenstein's son (i know thats impossible to know as it's not in the book - but i still want to know what all the characters are doing now!!) I hope Tom has given himself a slap round the face and can make it work with Sallie. And i hope Herbert mr genius composer pokes his eye out with his violin bow.

(note to self - these are not real people, these are not real people)

The movie was a complete Streisand makeover and became a pale version of the book ... I learned the hard way to avoid any movie adapted from the books I love ... Nolte was just wrong ...

I don't think there was anything more written aboout Tolitha. A round up (where are they now) would be great !!

Hello
I finished this last week.

IJAF - Thanks for the choice. Not something I would have picked up but well worth a read

I have mixed feelings about it and haven't quite settled on what I think of it overall. I found it really thought prokoving and challenged a lot of ideas that I have about domestic violence. I kept thinking "oh that would never happen like that" or "that makes no sense" but then starting to wonder whether it might. And to be honest the further in that I got the more it all started to come together and make sense. (One example is that I don't quite get what prompted Tom's change of heart towards his mother while he was in NY).

Whenever I read books like this I start to wonder about the background of the author. Does he really know what it is like, is he capturing something "true" about domestic violence. I know that it is more about the individuals involved than some generic statement about DV but I can't help wondering about where these insights come from. When I read something that is so far out of my own experience I get a feeling that I'm somehow being "taught" about DV and I'd like to know who is teaching me.

I have to confess that in places I thought it "went on a bit" and I did skim read in places. I just wanted him to get on and tell the story (which was utterly captivating). I also wasn't sure about the end sections about Luke. In some way it seemed a bit OTT and unnecessary. Given all the unthinkably awful things that had already happened, this seemed one bit too far and too the focus away from the main thread.

I'm starting to ramble and I'm aware that I'm being more negative than I meant to. Most of it was beautifully written and captured some truly painful horror. (Although strangely I was far more affected by the more "routine" badness that went on in the family than by the climactic horror scene where the men attack.)

Will try and post again when I have something more coherent to say

It's taken me a while to post anything on this book, but it did surprise me how much this book got under my skin. It's not one I would ever have picked up, and actually, I think if I had picked it up, read the first page, I would have put it down again. But I read this book from start to finish and there were some really lovely evocative passages. I think this author has really captured a true love of place, it almost made me jealous that I didn't feel so strongly about the landscape I grew up in - it must be wonderful to have such a strong sense of identity tied up in the landscape. I'm not sure about the family issues or the relationship with the psychiatrist. A part of me thinks that Streisand read the repeated references to Lowenstein's beauty and thought 'this is a part for me!' (perhaps that's uncharitable). I did like the relationship between the siblings, I thought that was a lovely balanced, unsentimental rendition, but I'm just not convinced by the relationship between mother-son and between the parents.
It also seemed like there was a bit of 'top this' about the increasingly awful stories.
I don't regret the time spent reading this novel though - I'm curious about what else the author has written as I did enjoy the style.

I absolutely loathed this book for the first few chapters. I honestly didn't think that I would be able to finish it - I found some of the dialogue between the main characters ridiculous and felt that Conroy was trying far too hard to be literary (he really knows how to milk a metaphor!). In fact, some of his writing didn't actually make any sense, it just sounded 'pretty'. I got a bit frustrated at times and ended up skipping over some of the overly descriptive (IMO) paragraphs.

However, I thought that the novel really came alive once Tom began to recount the events of his childhood. I definitely enjoyed reading about this in comparison to the present-day story (possibly because there was less woeful dialogue). The Callanwolde episode shocked me and I definitely didn't see the repercussions of that coming towards the end of the novel! I was chewing on my knuckles whilst reading that part...

The characterisation and sense of place were the strong points of the book. Like Ladybee, I thought that the relationship between the siblings was beautifully and poignantly rendered. I also found the mother quite fascinating and complex. One thing that did baffle me was the depiction of the father. He is constantly referred to as a monster but the domestic violence seemed quite sanitised and he came across as the least powerful person - apart from physically - in the family. I actually ended up feeling quite sorry for him and less so for the mother.

Sadly, I wasn't convinced by the end part of the story concerning Luke. I was expecting something truly terrible to happen to him (and I think Conroy definitely set up this expectation) and then was utterly bemused by his actions - it seemed quite out of character with the persona that the author had created.

On an entirely different note, I CANNOT imagine Nick Nolte and Barbara Streisand as Tom and Susan. Just plain wrong! That's one film I won't be watching...

Hi FM
I agree with everything you say
I also skipped over the very descriptive stuff and thought the stuff at the end with Luke was a confusing disctraction from the main threads of the book. I also puzzled over the father. I wasn't sure whether his character was in some way unrealistic or whether my puzzlement reflected a lack of insight into how violent people can be. Still not sure on this one.

I also agree with LB's point about the connection to a landscape. Something I've never had.

Hi I'm not reading any of the comments because I want to read everything after I've finished the book. It's 2nd of november & I still haven't finished it . But am just marking my place here. It's an interesting read so far. Had already seen the movie so that has coloured my experience of reading it somewhat. Anyway, will come back to this thread in a few days I expect!

OK I've now finished the book (very very late... will be sending it to Arti tomorrow ).

I'm coming from a different place from the rest of you because I had already seen the movie (a few years ago) before reading the book. So in my mind Tom was Nick Nolte & Lowenstein was Barbra Streisand while I was reading. Anyway, that was just an aside.

To begin with, I had the same feeling that FlyingMonkey describes. I disliked the (sometimes) excessively flowery language & the huge emphasis on description. Description that IMO was not always done well, just went on & on. I also disliked (to start with) Tom's endless quips & jokes. However, as I read on the book became an engrossing read. From halfway through or so I started to actually enjoy it somewhat. I knew what was coming (having seen the movie) although the movie- from what I remember- has a different version of what happens to Luke (or I may be wrong...need to see it again). The story drew me in, and in the end I thought it was a good enough read.

I say 'good enough' and not 'good' because I tend to dislike stories that have to do with childhood traumas especially when it's done in such an excessive way. I certainly agree with Ladybee who said there's a bit of a 'top this' feeling to the whole book. As in how horrible can the next scene / trauma be. I think the story would have been better if it had just concetnrated on the complex relationship between mother-father (more could have been made of that, especially about why Lila stayed with her husband so many years...there was obviously some love there but this wasn't explored, it remained a mystery). Also, the relationship between siblings was excellent & I would have been satisfied to just read about the core family, the domestic violence, the mother's aspirations etc. I felt that was the most interesting part of the book and certainly not the horrible rape scene nor the Luke scenes at the end which seemed out of place. I agree with everyone who wrote that the Luke scenes just weren't needed, the book had already delivered enough horror up to that point, why add more?

Anyway, all in all I didn't love it, nor did I hate it though. I feel the author writes well & could have just trusted the story to unfold naturally without having to pile up horror upon horror.

well, i have this book now and have nearly finished it.

will post again when all done

I thought I'd better post some thoughts whilst I can still remember the book (I have a memory like the proverbial sieve!) and also before aristocat beats me to it!

I really really enjoyed this book and thought it was both gripping and in some places very evocative (although I also agree that he could be too flowery in places and I was dying to cross out a few adjectives with my pencil!) The scenes I really loved were rescuing the whale (was it a whale?! See, I've forgotten already!), when they first bought the tiger, putting the dead turtle in the bed etc. Some of these scenes could have come out of Garcia Marquez, they were so beautifully written and totally bizarre.

I disagree about the end Luke scenes, I didn't think they were overdone. Luke so belonged to the island and always had a strong sense of justice and of home; I assumed he'd been affected by his time in Vietnam, which served to tip him over the edge a bit.

One scene I did think they could have done without was the rape scene - not because it was horrifying but just because it didn't add much to the narrative. It was a bit confusing really - we were supposed to believe that Savannah had been messed up by the domestic abuse in the family but there wasn't really much focus on any of that. Then they throw in the rape scene but Savannah had been experiencing mental health issues way before that so what was the point? The flaw for me was the whole DV storyline, I agree; I found the mother's character seemed to constantly change and the father didn't really figure much.

Have to say the Tom character got right on my nerves! I'm sure his constant quipping was meant to hide his trauma etc. but it just got really boring! And why did he have to sleep with his psychiatrist? Talk about cliche...

But having now just moaned loads - this was one of the best books I've read all year. Thanks itsjustafleshwound.

well itsjusta i have finished your book now and found it one of those that i both like and dislike!

firstly i had never seen the film to this so my judgement wasn't clouded either way.
when it arrived i was pleased to see it was a hefty book with many many pages .

i thought that the characters were brilliant and well described,
actually the descriptions were too descriptive however the author does write beautifully.

however it did 'ramble' on and on though. the book was quite disturbing in places and at times you think that this family couldn't surely suffer any more and then they do!

i felt it was a bit OTT and Toms jokes /quips wore a bit thin eventually.
the ending was OK but totally agree with arti what a cliche to sleep with the psychiatrist .

well this book does have it all - doesnt it? - drama,pain,abuse,murder and rape

the best part for me was the relationship between the siblings, there was a real connection there.

thank you an interesting book.

Where has this book been since December??

I didn't know what to expect from it at all - I'd heard of the movie, but haven't seen it, and when I got the book, I thought it was going to be schmaltzy and an easy read. So glad that it wasn't!

Overall I really enjoyed this one - some of it made me want to laugh out loud, I loved the bizarre episodes about the tiger, the whale, Tolitha in the funeral home, etc etc. But I did feel 'put through the mill' by some of the rest of it - the rape scene was awful - I was reading it on my morning commute, and it put me off my stride that early in the day.

Thank you itsajusta - a book I never would have chosen to read otherwise.

This book was a bit like my experience of the USA - amazed by the beauty of it at times, but just way too much of everything! I did find I would skim read quite a bit as I just got fed up with the endless metaphors. I suppose there was a bit of a "therapy" thing - i.e. just talk it all through and you'll feel much better. Therapists get paid to listen at length, I could have coped with the abridged version!

Having said that, I did enjoy the descriptions of the land and sea scapes when he wasn't too flowery and disappearing up his own backside metaphor. And I wanted to eat the food! None of the characters really rang true for me, though, which I suppose was my ultimate problem with the book.

Obviously millions of people disagreed with me though, as it seems to have been an international bestseller! (I never saw the film though I remember it being around and it getting prizes etc too)

I have just started this book and I'm only a few pages in but as soon as I read the blurb on the back, I've been haunted by some wierd deja-vu which I can't place. I think that I might have owned this book many years ago but never read it which is why the synopsis rings bell but the story itself doesn't if that makes sense. Of course, it could be that I've read it and I just don't remember any of it currently until my memory is jogged as I go along! This is qutie plausible as I seem to have an apalling memory for things I've read/watched (quite odd as I have an amazing memory for real life). So I'm really intrigued by this book, as much to discover why it feels so familiar as the story itself!