Insomnia

[Touty]

have Suffered from insomnia for several years I am 54 post menopause , currently taking 1 pump of oestrogen and 200 of progesterone for half the month

mood is ok

i I have to rely on sleeping tablets most nights

should I increase oestrogen- would that help with insomnia?

High dose magnesium before bed really helped me.

What's your daily routine like? Ime when I started waking at 3am I cut down on caffeine and made sure I had loads of physical activity during the day.
Get up at 7am even if not working, walk at least 10k steps a day.

Cool dark bedroom obviously and use earplugs even if you sleep alone, light sleepers can be easily woken by environmental noise birds, traffic etc.

Apply oestrogen a.m and take progesterone pm.

Absolutely worth trying. 1 pump is lower than the standard starting dose (2 pumps) and you don’t need any extra progesterone till you’re on 4 pumps. 2 pumps hugely helped my insomnia but I’m now on continuous progesterone instead of sequential and that has helped even more. That’s not a usual regime at my stage/age I don’t think but at 54 would be pretty standard. Oh, and I use my oestrogel at night just for convenience. No idea if that makes any difference to the impact on sleep.

Thank you. The thing is I don’t feel tired when I go to bed.

I try to go to sleep about 1am but just can’t so.l in the end I don’t sleep until 4 am after I give in and take a nytol.

its just getting worse.

You say you've suffered from insomnia for several years, what even when younger? So probably an ongoing problem? Have you seen specialists, tried hypnotherapy etc

There's only so much meno related tips can do. For me though I used to be able to sleep anywhere at anytime now if I haven't got at least 10k steps in I'm staring at the ceiling at 3am.

What physical activity do you do, do you work full time?

@Janiie I’m in a bit of a rut, I’m not going out to work, and probably not getting out of house much, I feel that there’s not much I can do as I can’t sleep, I don’t wake up until 12 so I can’t commit to much.

I used to do a bit of tutoring from home but that’s dried up.

I do go for walks sometimes but can’t say it makes much of a difference to being tired.

I moved house a year ago and got busy doing the garden etc so that helped.

The sleep problem started in peri really, about that time I moved to Spain and Dr gave me zopiclone, and lorezapam not sure if I can get that here in UK. Don’t want to rely on tablets really. Now I take over the counter sedating antihistamines from boots.

How do you manage to do 10k steps everyday?

They really restrict zopiclone and lorazepam, probably only way of getting it would be via private gp. Unless an nhs gp started you on it with an aim to coming off it, so a reducing dose?

10k steps sounds a lot but honestly I just walk a lot, we have a dog so that helps, 1hr at 7am and an hour later makes it all add up.

I'm no expert and don't want to patronise but try no matter how little sleep you've had getting up at 7am. If you're in bed til 12md it'll obviously have your bodyclock all to pot.

You'd be an ideal candidate for night shifts, obviously no call for nightshift tutoring but hospitality or warehouse work would be ideal then you could sleep all day?

First step is seeing a GP, tell them about your long term insomnia and sleeping tablets, I'm sure they'll have some advice .

I agree with this and it needs to be a good dose at least 400mg of elemental magnesium which is usually less than the amount listed on the bottle For example usually 1400mg of Magnesium Citrate only gives you about 400mg elemental magnesium. Ratios will vary from magnesium type to type. Many people swear by Magnesium Glycinate but I had a paradoxical reaction to that due to the Glycine. I find Magnesium L-threonate better or Taurate but I combine them with Citrate to keep the cost lower. Adding Vitamins B1 and B2 really helps also, in fact a B Complex is a good idea if you are struggling with sleep and Zinc.

Magnesium is super common and increasingly so during menopause and more impactful. Then often when people treat it they don't take enough for it to really work so do try it, I wasted a year of my life feeling awful and a ton of money on various supplements. sleep apps, weighted blankets and so on and magnesium sorted it out.

Low dose melatonin can help make you drowsy at bed time and is safe to use longer term, not always easy to get in the UK or Europe though.

The op has a severe and apparently chronic insomnia problem and takes sleeping tablets regularly. I don't think think magnesium or vits will help at this stage.

They need to seek professional help and guidance and try to reset their body clock.

Breaking the cycle by getting up at 7am rather than midday would be the first step, hard though that will be. If anyone stays in bed until lunchtime they will be up all night. I'm not minimising or being glib, I know when the dc were young and sometimes awake half the night getting up early the next day was difficult but it is doable and of course contributes massively to sleeping on a night if exhausted.

Thing is if I get up at 7 I’ll have barely had 3 hours sleep if I’m lucky

Then the day is so long if I’m up early I don’t know what the heck I’d do all day

I agree with @Janiie the first thing you need to do is reset your body clock and stick to it. One of my young adult kids is like this, a night owl and terrible insomniac. They’ll fall asleep at 5am then not wake up until 1/2pm, then go to bed at midnight and obviously aren’t tired, so they’re not falling asleep until 4/5am, and the cycle starts again. The only way they can break it is by setting an alarm and forcing themselves to get up and stay awake all day, no matter how knackered they are. Usually within a few days they’ve managed to reset enough that they can go to bed at a more normal time.

You just need to push through, no matter how hard it seems at first. Keep occupied, get out if the house as much as possible, even if just short walks.

I know. Not easy but the only way to get to sleep at night is to get up before lunchtime and plan activities. Walk to the shop, walk back. See a friend. Keep going. Do some errands and housework. Sigh up for volunteering if you don't have a job or school runs to do.

By the time you've been up at 7am a few days you will be naturally tired.

I'm not an expert but while this may he exacerbated by meno it sounds like a chronic problem that you may need proefessional guidance with.

I take Sleep Oracles Sleep Aid | 600mg Magnesium Glycinate with L-Theanine, Passionflower & Valerian Root.
One capsule 30 mins before bed and it helps a lot. I don't think there is one thing for everybody, and I have tried a lot of different things over the years, but this worked for me.
Keep trying and Good Luck.

I agree with a previous poster, you are going to have to reset your sleep cycle. It will be extremely hard, and it may be less painful to do it gradually over a period of time. Getting sunlight within the first 30mins of waking is crucial to setting your sleep pattern, so no amount of magnesium etc. is going to help. It is difficult and I say that as a chronic insomniac, but it isn't something that will magically go away on its own.

How much?

I would force yourself up and out of bed at 7. In this weather get outside immediately if you can and sit with a cup of coffee. I need to physically tire myself out in a day: I aim for at minimum a 30 minute run and 10000 steps. That takes some time! Then do things outside: get as much light as you can. Allow softer lighting, no phones and quiet after 9pm. No eating after 7pm. Meditate if you can; I use an acupressure mat that I like. Be religious about the above for a week and see how you go. What have you got to lose? There may be other things but sorting these basics out will not hurt, and might make a big difference on their own. Good luck x

I don't disagree with the sunlight, heard this is good but in the winter when you are up early it is not possible for an hour or two unfortunately.
Good advice all the same.

rosie1873 You are quite right - it is much more difficult in the winter. I have one of those SAD lamps which I use when I remember.

I'll look into that SisterMaryLuke sounds good.

No need to get up as early as 7am, I'd suggest getting up at 9am.

@Touty if you are post menopause why are you only taking progesterone for part of the month? You should be taking it every day...usually dose is 100mg ans 2 pumps gel

You body clock is all to pot! You need to get up in the mornings, not stay in bed until midday. I was up at 3am this morning. I was in bed at 8pm. I go to bed each evening between 7-9 and naturally wake between 3-5. I could go to bed later, but I travel a lot for work, and like having a couple of hours to myself in the mornings before work starts the inevitable driving.

Have you tried listening to sleep stories?

I rely on the Calm app and it does work a lot of the time. As I struggle with a busy mind so gives me something else to think about. Something nice! So the rest of the worries fade into the back.

@Touty Why aren't you increasing the estrogen? That's the usual way forwards. You can come back to other things suggested here is more estrogen doesn't work.

You're on a very tiny dose.
Is there a reason for that? GP advice or your own choice?

It seems like a lot of posts here aren't addressing your question which was do you need more estrogen.

YES!

The standard dose is 2 pumps.

Insomnia was my main symptom and at your age I was on 2 pumps- I started on 1 and it didn't work for my sleep. You might need 3 pumps- experiment.

You need to try to stop the sleeping tablets. In the UK they are not prescribed for more than a few days for extreme cases of loss of sleep.

@JinglingSpringbells I was afraid of breast cancer, but I will increase it to 2 pumps