Ovestin on your face

[Garlicfest]

This wasn't a plan but, while devouring information about Ovestin cream, I found a lot of reliable-looking statements that it may be used to retard facial hair growth. Well, my face hairs grow faster than I can pull them out, so I thought I may as well give it a go.

It's weakened the hair growth, not eliminated it. But ...! I've got horrid wrinkles on my lower cheeks - it's quilted, you can actually see the collagen's collapsed - and the cream's really smoothing them out.

I'm not willing to risk my health for a prettier face but those wrinkles are quite disfiguring so, naturally, I'm pleased with the effect. Does anybody know how dangerous it's likely to be? My GP's anti HRT so I can't ask him; I'm getting my Ovestin (and, now, patches) online.

I'd quite like to carry on doing this until I've worked my way up to the full patch. I've started on quarters because I'm old and it's 7 years since I last took systemic HRT: it will be nine months before I'm using whole ones. I'm kind of telling myself I can keep hormone-ing my lower face until then, and then see whether the full patches can keep the damage under control.

Clearly, face cancer would be worse than wrinkles ... I've looked, but not found anything saying this is a realistic concern. Hoping you wise ones will know.

This is a bit different!

Where have you seen something about using it on your face?
Can you link to the 'reliable statements'?

TBH you don't know if it's the estrogen in the cream that's helping your wrinkles or just the cream itself which is bound to be moisturising.

I' m not sure that facial skin can absorb estrogen applied to it. It might but it might not.

TBH I think you should work on getting the full dose of estrogen from a patch. If your GP is so anti HRT, can you change to another GP or find someone in the same practice? GPs can't 'refuse' HRT any more than they can refuse any drug unless there are sound medical contraindications.

Out of interest who has told you to use 1/4 of a patch? Is this just your own 'choice'? Or have you had a consultation? What dose of patch is it?
The 7 years off HRT isn't really relevant, as far as I am aware.

Women over 60 or who are 10 years post menopause, are advised to start HRT on a low dose, which is a 25mcg patch or 1 pump of gel. But then work up if needed over a few months.

@Garlicfest I was intrigued and had a look at what is out there.

I found one research paper. It says that using estrogen cream on the face actually caused a higher level of one type of protein which can destroy collagen so has a negative effect.

https://www.medicaljournals.se/acta/content_files/files/pdf/94/1/3933.pdf

If you were to get your HRT from a GP (because buying online is hugely expensive) , increase your dose, and with the money from not buying HRT online, you could use it for treatment for the hairs (laser etc). If you really really hate your face/wrinkles look at other ways of helping those - splash out on creams and lotions, fillers, beauty treatments, etc?

I'm not sure that facial skin can absorb estrogen applied to it. It might but it might not.

Of course facial skin will absorb the oestrogen, just like skin (or mucosa) on any other part of the body.

Estrogen gel (as systemic HRT) has to be applied to certain areas of the body where it's more easily absorbed, supposedly by areas with more fat.

Yes, for optimal and consistent levels of absorption, but it will be absorbed to some extent by any skin.

Thanks!

@JinglingSpringbells, I decided on a very cautious patch introduction after reading posts here by - I think - you. I realise I'm probably being too cautious; I'm keen to avoid triggering thrombosis in particular. No family history but I've had moderately high cholesterol for years.

The idea of seeing another GP's laughable; it's almost impossible to see a GP at all!

I wasn't previously searching for info on estriol for skin ageing, but it turns out there is plenty: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8876303/ for example.

On the question: "It works, but is it safe?" the answer seems to be, as usual, "Likely safe but we don't know it all yet." Very wordy review to this effect here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6451761/

One or two beauty writers (see here) have pointed out that retinoids have much the same effect on wrinkled skin. They come with their own risk profile and cost as much, so ...

@CeruleanDive, trying to get very specific answers to your question got me lost in a maze of receptor types & densities. I'm just gonna go with: mucosal tissue is more absorbent than outer epidermis; all skin contains hormone receptors but they're highly concentrated in the vagina.

Interestingly, I've just seen some work suggesting that hormonal health of the vagina affects immune health! Didn't follow that up, as it's very early days for all this research on female health that should've been done decades ago.

I thought I read somewhere that there were risks around pigmentation. I am tempted though 🤣.

The effects of 0.01% estradiol and 0.3% estriol compounds were compared in 59 preclimacteric women with skim aging symptoms.

The women in the trial were pre-menopausal.
It's likely their own estrogen would be fluctuating and the effects on women who are post-meno may be different.

Is this also the case for patches?

Yeah, @JinglingSpringbells ... I'm extremely weary of being in the vanguard of everything, it's a generational curse. From equal pay and the glass ceiling to reproductive rights and rape laws, I've been among the women marching into the unknown with flags flying. Now it's medicine's belated discoveries that female bodies aren't male bodies with different sex organs, and that women continue to be female after fertility ends.

I'd rather not conduct too many experiments on myself - but it's going to be a matter of risk assessment with limited data. I guess younger women are doing similar with all their 'tweakments' (let's not talk about puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones) 😬

My GP, meanwhile, doesn't seem to have bothered with the info I sent him on the improved health/risk profile of transdermal HRT and very clearly thinks old women should just get on with being old!

@whatshappeningtohim, I'm using Evorel Conti patches. The leaflet just says to choose hairless skin below the waist. I'm sticking mine on the hip, as I believe most do.

Thanks @Garlicfest I’ve been sticking them to my upper thigh in a reasonably lean spot, I was wondering if I should try a spot with more adipose tissue!

@whatshappeningtohim Are you using patches?
The instructions should be on the leaflet in the box.

You sound very feisty @Garlicfest so I wonder why your GP is being such a dinosaur when faced with someone so assertive?

The medical guidance is very clear and the BMS has a very simple statement on HRT in older women (over 60.) If he was given a copy of that, I wonder what his reaction would be? Have you seen him in person to discuss? I don't know how old you are, but wherever you are over 60, you can still use HRT and start on a low dose. 25mgs patch and work upwards if needed. You don't need to cut it in 4 unless it's a 100mcg patch.

To be honest, if you can't change GP practices or see a different GP, why not consider getting your HRT privately?

The cost of HRT from online pharmacies is a rip off. (I pay for my HRT on a private prescription but it's nowhere near the cost of online pharmacies.)

Ovestin on a private prescription is about £10-12, and online it's close to £30!

For what you're paying for it, you could see a consultant (remotely if you choose to) and they could write to your GP. That might persuade him.
If not, and you had to continue with private prescriptions, it would not be as much as buying online.

Presumably you're on statins for your high cholesterol?

Thanks @JinglingSpringbells I was prescribed 2 months supply so dispensed less than a full box with the leaflet missing! I found instructions on the NHS website but just wondered if I should be opting for a slightly fattier location below the waist

Haven't read the full thread, but Kelly Casperson is evangelical about this. She uses it and she's a uro-gynae.

I tried it but the preparation was too greasy for me.
However hadnt thought about my neck hairs....!

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4hjbl3e2Pl30kQcflLhOPf?si=D8zSXpOqRm2zICcWeY8QLg

Entitled 'estrogen for your face' Kelly Casperson podcast.

Enjoy, she rocks.

why not consider getting your HRT privately?

Might it be the £230+ first consultation fee to get something that the NHS should absolutely be providing for free, @JinglingSpringbells?

Precisely. Which is why I first suggested the OP either saw another GP at the practice or changed practices, if possible.

But she says it's not possible.

And she could take a print off of the guidance for older women starting/ resuming HRT to discuss.

But at the moment she's probably spending the equivalent of a private appt on the patches which are very expensive. In 2-3 months she may be spending the same on HRT and Ovestin as the cost of a private appt.

But is the 'endorsement' from one uro in the US actually reliable? All the research papers say 'they don't really know'.

Probably not!

I have heard her mention it so many times it's permeated my 'it must be true' brain 😁

I mean logically it should be OK and work, but no, there probably isn't the research yet.

I mean, maybe someone could do the research…

??
There is research. OP has linked to some.
It's contradictory.
The link I left showed it increased a type of protein that actually destroyed collagen.

I found a lot of reliable-looking statements that it may be used to retard facial hair growth.
@Garlicfest Was this in biological women or was it for men who are changing to women through treatment?

How long did it take to reduce hair growth/strength, @Garlicfest?