Oestrogel: new packaging (yet again)?

[Cosmetichamster]

Hi ladies,

Just got this month's prescription for Oestrogel, and I have been issued with a bottle that is new (to me at least). Have a look at the photo: left is what I have known and used since June this year, on the right is the new bottle, also from Besins, same labels, same ingredients, and long use by date (07/25). Obtained from a reputable pharmacy, which has filled all my previous HRT prescriptions.

Has anyone seen this sort of thing? Slightly freaked out here.

Don’t panic you can change to continuous after being on sequential for 1-2 years or when you reach 55 whichever comes first. I know the Covid jab played havoc with some women, but bleeding.

Ok, I’ve been following this with interest the last couple of days and I apologise in advance for the essay.

I’m another one whose symptoms suddenly got worse after the bottle change but only just put two and two together as I had initially thought it was my progesterone sensitivity with the Utrogestan having built up or something.

Anyway, I digress. Something interesting happened this evening that I think probably proves the old and new are different in their make up.

So, yesterday I found an old bottle with a few pumps still left in it. I had enough in it to dose for last night and still had enough that I could get half my dose for this evening. Well, my only choice was to top it up with the new stuff, and because the old pump was nearly empty it only released one pump before needing to sit and prime for the next, so I added a second pump of the new stuff to my hand at the same time (I’m on a dose of 4 pumps so figured while I was rubbing it in, the old pump could be sucking up more of the good stuff ready for the other part of my dose). Anyway, the strangest thing happened. One of the two gels turned into hard gel, like I was trying to rub broken up orbees into my legs. Now, I have never had this happen when dispensing two pumps out of one bottle onto my hand of either type, but tonight with the two different types of gel, I ended up with small lumps of orbee like stuff on my legs and hands. I thought maybe it was just that some of the old gel had maybe hardened in the nozzle since yesterday (not that that has ever happened before either, but benefit of the doubt and all that) and for the next 2 pumps of my dose I did the same. Pumped the old gel out and checked there was no lumps, with my thumb, then added the new gel, and yep, more lumps formed as I rubbed it in. It wasn’t all of one gel solidifying by any means, but even a few hard lumps forming on contact with the other gel surely proves they are different chemicals, and ones that obviously react with each other?

Any one have any ideas?

Anyone else tried this and had the same/different result? Or had this happen just pumping two pumps into their hand from the same bottle?

Going to try to attach a photo of a few of the lumps of stuff it left on my hand. Hope it works 🤞

I have both bottles ...going to try this! Thank you!

I just tried it and that did not happen but I will do it again later to be sure.

@ConfusedEasily Thanks for sharing!

Do you remember when you started using the 'old bottle with a few pumps still left in it'? I ask because the expiry date after priming the pump is 3 months, after that the gel can become unstable.

I have a very basic doubt at this point.

The synthetic polymer used as the gelling agent in Oestrogel is Carbopol 980NF (a specific type of carbomer) manufactured by American company Lubrizol.

According to them the product shelf-life is 2 years.

It comes as a powder, and I still don't know if this expiry date is only applied to the powder or also after mixing it with other ingredients.

If that is the case how can Oestrogel expiry date be 3 years?

https://www.upichem.com/products/carbomer-980-nf/

https://www.lubrizol.com/Health/Pharmaceuticals/Excipients/Carbopol-Polymer-Products/Carbopol-980-NF-Polymer

Yes! When I was getting to the end (still in date, only been used for nearly a month) blue lid bottle, I was using 2 pumps but adding a third pump of the new cylindrical bottle to my thigh and I also got the lumps as if it hadn’t mixed well, a bit like eraser rubbings!

You have answered my question, thanks! I'll keep investigating it 🕵

Hi@Azaleah, thank you for replying with your thoughts. In my case my bottle would have been opened longer than 3 months - Whoops!

I started getting these new cylindrical bottles back in July, so that would have been the last time this bottle could have been from but I fear it was even longer than that. I usually throw them straight out now, but in the beginning I used to keep the “empty” ones in my cupboard just in case the GP refused to prescribe it for me and I needed to wait ages for an appt. As then I at least had a few dregs to keep me going for a bit. So I likely had one fall down the back during that time that then got missed when I subsequently chucked them. So it could have been up to a year old. 😬

@Newyorkdollmama Thank you for trying. It could be that mine had been open over 3 months so don't waste too much of your good stuff trying.

@Cylindricalfrustration That is interesting that you had it too. Thank you so much for replying because as soon as I read Azeleah’s comment I was like “Damn! I forgot to factor in the instability of being open so long that’s probably all it is” but maybe it’s not entirely 🤔

My old bottle I found was a green square if that helps or has any bearing?

@ConfusedEasily I think the fact that your bottle had been opened longer than 3 months has to be considered but it doesn't mean there isn't something odd going on, because this information is NOT listed in the UK Oestrogel patient information leaflet (it is mentioned in the leaflet of Besins' gel version sold in Germany, Gynokadin), so Besins should explain this as well, as they are supposed to be EXACTLY the same 🙄

I think the gel formula has definitely changed, otherwise why have Besins changed the information in the leaflet regarding the gel ingredients? It used to say ethanol 96% v/v and carbopol 980 NF and now it says ethanol and carbomer.

I think we deserve more detailed information, otherwise it's impossible to know whether the quantity and/or the quality of the 'inactive' ingredients have changed. Ethanol used to be listed as 'inactive' ingredient, but recently (08 Sep 2023) it's listed as an 'excipient with known effect'.

To be fair with Besins the patient information leaflet does say how much ethanol Oestrogel contains but it looks amateurish... tut tut

I've had the gel feel like it had little bits in it, too. For me it was a newly opened new shaped bottle, so not out -of-date or mixed with gel from the other style bottle. Not every time, but sometimes.

Who knows 🤷‍♀️

I managed to get another half dose (2 pumps) of the old Oestrogel out again last night by repeating the mixing with one pump of the new stuff per side while it primed. The lumpiness didn’t happen. Not with either half of my dose.

So now I am wondering if it has something to do with the fact the new stuff wasn’t used for one night, as I managed to get one whole dose out of the old bottle the first night. It had the nozzle cap on and the lid, but that’s the only difference between last night, and the night before in terms of putting it on that I can think of.

Even if that is all that caused it though it surely isn’t ideal and shows a difference in something, even if it’s just that the pump system isn’t air tight like it should be. I mean this old bottle has sat with just a lid on in my cupboard for months and had no lumps in it when used after all that time.

@ConfusedEasily So this time you have mixed 2 pumps of the old gel with 1 of the new gel? Previous time you have mixed 1 pump of each gel? Is that right?

Isn't it truly shameful that we as middle aged worldly and wise, should have to resort to experimentation and second guessing ourselves. The product is inferior! Why are so many of us suffering needlessly. I am so angry!

@Azaleah Sorry, my bad wording. I mixed 1 pump of old with one pump new and rubbed it in. Twice. Once for each leg because I have 4 pumps total. So exactly the same as the previous night.

@Newyorkdollmama It truly is!

Why can’t they just be honest and say “yeah sorry, we changed x, y or z to save money and didn’t think it would make a difference, but clearly it is, so we will see what we can do going forwards”

@ConfusedEasily Thanks. If your hands had been clean (without any residue of other skin products), all I can think of is that the airless pump mechanism of the cylindrical bottle is not working. Air and humidity could explain the gel clumping.

@Azaleah I don’t use any skin products and the soap in my bathroom is the same as it’s always been. So I guess that says it must be the airless pump mechanism not working properly. Thank you for getting back to me :)

@ConfusedEasily @Newyorkdollmama I agree, but this is nothing new regarding this company's behaviour, is it? The same thing happened when Oestrodose was being sold in the UK as Oestrogel and the response was “the gel is exactly the same, but we can't control what happens after the product leaves the company's warehouse”. Really? The companies that supply the bottles (Lablabo and Nemera) have tamper-proof versions, why not use them? And the patient information leaflet says “no special storage requirements,” so what do they think might be going on? They didn't answer that. No... women are notorious for hysteria and anxiety issues, menopausal women are notorious for 10x hysteria and anxiety issues. Let's just change the packaging again and wait for the next wave of hysteria. Hang on! If the shape of the bottle is the cause of the hysteria (nocebo effect), then why have some women felt their symptoms return when Besins changed the label just a tiny bit (orange square v green square)? Gosh, 1000x hysteria! If only middle-aged menopausal women didn't have other things to do or problems to deal with. They have messed with the wrong lot!

Just a reminder... looking at the website of the cylindrical bottle supplier (Lablabo) there's a 'self-sealing actuator' version, which makes me think that it's really necessary to put the stopper back on the 'linked cap', otherwise air could get inside it.

The very old bottles of gel (going back 15 years) were the cylinder design. The plastic 'pouch' inside the carton is airtight and contracts when a pump is dispensed. It's the same design as some cosmetics and shower gels that are in the same design of pump. Except some of those have a transparent outer carton so it's possible to see the plastic pouch contracting. When there was a shortage many years ago, some of us extracted the plastic pouch to try to get a bit more gel out by cutting up the inner pouch. The inner pouch deflates so, as far as I know, it's airtight.

Thanks for the info @Azaleah I always use the stopper. I figured it was there for a reason, especially as the instructions say something about making sure to put it on after use. It is an annoying little thing though.

I agree!

@JinglingXmasbells Is it possible that they have changed something since those old cylinder containers? The way they fasten onto the pouch? Something in the pump mechanism? Or just the machinery that seals everything because it’s old and wearing out and doesn’t do as good job as it should? It would only need to be something small in order for it to potentially let air in now when it didn’t back then. And if it isn’t that it is letting air in, what other cause do you think could have caused the hard clumps to form that I (and others) have experienced?

The current cylindrical bottles don't necessarily have the same pump as the ones used in 2019. Judging by the photos posted in this thread by @Muttley47 and the pictures available on the manufacturer's website (Lablabo), the pump mechanism looks different.