Page 15 | Oestrogel: new packaging (yet again)?

Cosmetichamster · 2022-12-12T12:07:17+00:00

Hi ladies, Just got this month's prescription for Oestrogel, and I have been issued with a bottle that is new (to me at least). Have a look at the photo: left is what I have known and used since June this year, on the right is the new bottle, also from Besins, same labels, same ingredients, and long use by date (07/25). Obtained from a reputable pharmacy, which has filled all my previous HRT prescriptions. Has anyone seen this sort of thing? Slightly freaked out here. [shock]

Skinnybluebody · 11/08/2023 21:04

Azaleah · 11/08/2023 17:50

@Skinnybluebody Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. You said you were not sure taking 5 is allowed, but now you seem quite sure?

I was referring to the manufacturer's instructions based on clinical trials.

Everything else is trial and error and the risks are the patient's choice based on an informed decision, assuming their GPs are knowledgeable about it.

No problem lovely 😊
I've picked up a script for patches today, I intend to start on Monday and see how I go. I am fortunate in that I have an amazing GP who totally got my point when I explained the issues with the gels and was happy to facilitate a change for me.
It's so frustrating though that we have to do these things just to achieve harmony in our bodies 😫

Azaleah · 11/08/2023 21:09

@Skinnybluebody Great 👍🏻 Do you know what brand of patches? I used Estradot when I was trialling HRT and they're tiny, transparent and stick very well.

Muttley47 · 11/08/2023 22:22

@Azaleah How did you get on with patches? I used Evorel for a couple of days and felt awful, all my weird symptoms like pounding heart, flushes, feeling on the verge of a migraine etc appeared it was really odd. Once I took it off before bed, I felt so much better in the morning. Also, have you tried Lenzetto or any other methods of application?

Azaleah · 11/08/2023 23:00

@Muttley47 My menopause journey is a bit of a saga... too long to describe it on here. I had an awful time during perimenopause and all I tried (Oestrogel, Estradot, and Testogel) was useless, so I stopped everything. One of the reasons was migraine.

I'm 7 years postmenopause and I have the odd hot flushes and joint pains, but I don't think I will go back on HRT. I have a DEXA scan once a year to monitor bone density and that's it. Ice packs for hot flushes and hot bottles for joint pain 🙄

I think Estradot patches are great because they're tiny, transparent and stick well, but each woman is different so it's trial and error, I'm afraid.

MargotMoon · 12/08/2023 07:34

I'm glad I found this thread!

I'm a bit puzzled as to how people can just up their dose when they feel they need to - my repeat prescription doesn't let me order a new batch until just before the previous ones have run out (3 months' worth) so if I used more product I'd have a battle on my hands getting my GP to give me any more. Appointments are like hen's teeth.

Interesting that someone said about the gel liking fat cells to absorb into - does that mean I'd be better applying it to my stomach or bum? My thighs are weirdly skinny and I tend to carry weight round the middle!

seggz · 12/08/2023 11:53

i have been using the new bottle of oestrogel for about a month now and my anxiety levels are through the roof, i am crying all the time i cant eat. it is so dredgful. i have had this new bottle before and they changed it back to the original straight away but this time they are saying this is the only one. i have reported on the yellow card. i rang the doctors 1st Aug in tears they are giving me a call back 16th Aug😳😞i dont know what to do

SamR36 · 12/08/2023 12:38

@MargotMoon i was able to up my dose to 3 on the cylindrical bottle as im prescribed 2 pumps , but some days on the orange square conical bottle was only using one, as i work nights and sometimes missed a dose, so sort of levelled out prescription wise, if you get me. My script is also monthy and can be put in every 21 days i believe.
Im unsure on whether you can put it on your stomach, but know some that put a patch on their bum so cant see much difference🤔 makes sense really, i may start doing it 😁

Skinnybluebody · 12/08/2023 13:34

Azaleah · 11/08/2023 21:09

@Skinnybluebody Great 👍🏻 Do you know what brand of patches? I used Estradot when I was trialling HRT and they're tiny, transparent and stick very well.

I was precribed Estrodot, however when I got to the pharmacy they tried to order them and they're out of stock indefinitely, so I have Estraderm MX 100 now. The 2nd choice by GPs I believe when prescribing. I've not put one on yet, I intend to start on Monday and change Monday and Thursday recurring. Hopefully I'll get better consistency than with the gel 😊

Azaleah · 12/08/2023 15:03

@MargotMoon My sister has been applying Oestrogel on her stomach for a decade now, but she had a hysterectomy. I'm not sure if it could be risky for women with a uterus.

Lougle · 12/08/2023 22:39

I've started my new bottle today. Cylindrical with a white lid, batch number starting with 7. It's undeniably different to the bottle I was using yesterday. The gel is thicker and it absorbs much more quickly. I'll be interested to see if I sleep longer into the night in a few days time, as I've been waking in the early hours again.

Azaleah · 13/08/2023 16:13

Muttley47 · 08/08/2023 16:27

Hi @Azaleah here are the pumps. The white topped pump looks inferior/more economical in quality to the green. The green has a metal ball and spring, and a tubed/long part that goes into the foil pouch/bag with the gel. Whereas the white topped bottle is directly slipped onto the plastic pouch.
When I have prized bottles open to collect the remaining gel from the pouches, (there's at least a dose) the green bottle with its foil pouch has to be cut/pulled away, and the white simply comes off easily.

@Muttley47 I have checked the pump on the Lablabo website and the current ones are different from the ones you posted, so now I'm thinking that Besins is using old pumps that have already been replaced by Lablabo, probably for a good reason!

https://lablabo.com/en/gamme/range-select-en/

Azaleah · 13/08/2023 16:20

And here's the evidence that the UK market is much bigger than the French market. It's strange that the website doesn't name the new manufacturing site and the actual date...

https://drug-dev.com/lablabo-inaugurates-new-production-site/

LABLABO Inaugurates New Production Site

Based since 1971 close to Annemasse, France, LABLABO, a world leader in airless metering dispensers, has recently announced the celebrated the

https://drug-dev.com/lablabo-inaugurates-new-production-site

Azaleah · 13/08/2023 17:04

It's even more puzzling that on Nemera's website the 'B-shape' bottle (used for Oestrogel with squares and Oestrodose) are marked with a * saying they're not availabel for homonal applications?!

https://www.nemera.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Nemera-Dermal-05-10-2022.pdf

Peripenny · 13/08/2023 17:08

Hi, have never posted before. I wanted to add my experience with Oestrogel, as I also believe the new batch with the white lid is not the same. I'm 49 and I've been using the gel for 18 months - my very first bottle was Oestrodose, then following that it was Oestrogel with turquoise lid (orange square) for 9 months (using 2 pumps per day at first but gradually up to 4 pumps to get on top of symptoms). For the last 7 months it has been Oestrogel turquoise lid (green square) 4 pumps per day, and I've felt pretty great and back to myself. On the 9th Aug (5 days ago) I started a new bottle, this new smaller design in cylindrical bottle with a white lid, batch starting with a 7. I've had a headache every day, palpatations, had trouble sleeping, hip knee and elbow pains, felt too hot and then I started bleeding by the 3rd day of the new bottle! I had a Mirena coil fitted when I started the gel, but up to that point I still had regular periods. After about 9 months with the coil, all spotting and breakthrough bleeding and periods stopped. So this return of bleeding and all the other perimenopause symptoms I've been free from until this new batch is definitely more than coincidental. Will be calling my gp in the morning for advice. Luckily I do have 1 bottle of my 'old' turquoise lid gel in the back of my cupboard to use.

Azaleah · 13/08/2023 17:20

Even more puzzled!

Manual filling?!

https://www.nemera.net/sfbg-mfki2018/

Sof’Bag®+ Manual Filling Kit Instructions - Nemera

https://www.nemera.net/sfbg-mfki2018

Azaleah · 13/08/2023 17:27

The Youtube link

Sofbag filling kit new one

https://youtu.be/09TorjYkX5U

Hoooodoyouthink · 13/08/2023 17:34

Peripenny · 13/08/2023 17:08

Hi, have never posted before. I wanted to add my experience with Oestrogel, as I also believe the new batch with the white lid is not the same. I'm 49 and I've been using the gel for 18 months - my very first bottle was Oestrodose, then following that it was Oestrogel with turquoise lid (orange square) for 9 months (using 2 pumps per day at first but gradually up to 4 pumps to get on top of symptoms). For the last 7 months it has been Oestrogel turquoise lid (green square) 4 pumps per day, and I've felt pretty great and back to myself. On the 9th Aug (5 days ago) I started a new bottle, this new smaller design in cylindrical bottle with a white lid, batch starting with a 7. I've had a headache every day, palpatations, had trouble sleeping, hip knee and elbow pains, felt too hot and then I started bleeding by the 3rd day of the new bottle! I had a Mirena coil fitted when I started the gel, but up to that point I still had regular periods. After about 9 months with the coil, all spotting and breakthrough bleeding and periods stopped. So this return of bleeding and all the other perimenopause symptoms I've been free from until this new batch is definitely more than coincidental. Will be calling my gp in the morning for advice. Luckily I do have 1 bottle of my 'old' turquoise lid gel in the back of my cupboard to use.

Can you report this on yellow card? The more people report the better.

yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

Azaleah · 13/08/2023 17:37

Here you can see a 2006 pres kit from Rexam (bought by Nemera) showing the 'B-shape' bottle being used for Oestrodose. So what has changed?

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/43306/icse-2006

Peripenny · 13/08/2023 17:50

Hoooodoyouthink · 13/08/2023 17:34

Can you report this on yellow card? The more people report the better.

yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

Show quote history

Yes, I've already just done this!

Roolet12 · 14/08/2023 11:45

@Azaleah I've now twice experienced spells of feeling crappy ( before being aware of any potential issue - so no placebo effect!) after switching from the conical bottle to the cylindrical shaped bottle. I was on the former for a few years, felt mostly pretty good, changed to the latter and bam, symptoms returning. I've tried to sift back through all the posts here but in my sleep deprived , befuddled brain am struggling not to feel confused! Could you be very kind and possibly summarise in a couple of lines, the batch number / square colour etc that seem ok and those that don't so I can see if these correlate with my experiences. 🙏 I will also register my concern. Thanks.

agnesmartin · 14/08/2023 13:32

Azaleah · 02/08/2023 13:29

So...

The current Oestrogel inside the cylindrical bottle (white lid) is being manufactured by Besins in Drogenbos, Belgium. They have batch numbers starting with 7.

The old cylindrical bottle (white lid) which used to be the Oestrogel packaging had gel produced by Delpharm until the change of packaging to the conical bottle (which has always been the Oestrodose packaging).

Delpharm is a CDMO (Contract Development and Manufacturing Organisation) which had been responsible for the gel production from 2012 when it acquired the Drogenbos facility from Besins, to June 2022, when Besins acquired the facility back from Delpharm.

The Oestrogel inside the conical bottle (turquoise lid) with an orange square 🟧 has been manufactured by Delpharm in Belgium until June 2022. Batch numbers starting with 7.

The Oestrogel and Oestrodose inside the conical bottle (turquoise lid) with a green square 🟩 has been produced by Besins in Montrouge, France. Batch numbers starting with 1.

The older Oestrodose without a square was probably produced by Delpharm, but it is possible that it was produced by Besins at some point in Montrouge, France.

Besins tried to produce both Oestrogel and Oestrodose in France (green square 🟩) but apparently they couldn't cope with the demand so they have decided to buy back the Drogenbos facility, instead of paying Delpharm to manufacture them as a CDMO.

The brand names (Oestrogel and Oestrodose) are different but the gel is supposed to be the same. The difference is the manufacturer!

Gel in the conical bottle (turquoise lid):

🟩 = Besins (Batch numbers starting with 1)
🟧 = Delpharm (Batch numbers starting with 7)

Gel in the cylindrical bottle (white lid):

Batch numbers starting with 7 until June 2022 = Delpharm
Batch numbers starting with 7 after June 2022 = Besins

@Roolet12 I'm not sure it's possible to summarise it all in a couple of sentences but @Azaleah put together a comprehensive summary here.

Azaleah · 14/08/2023 14:59

@Roolet12 Sorry to hear you're struggling with this. Sleep deprivation is torture!

The answer to your question is tricky.

There's no ok gel and not ok gel.

Each woman has a personal experience depending on which version of the gel they had been using before the changes, their sensitivity to fluctuations in oestrogen, absorption, type of skin, etc.

Most reports I have read so far from women experiencing issues (it's important to mention that some women haven't felt any difference) are that they feel better on the conical bottle (with a neck) with an orange square 🟧.

These batches have been produced by Delpharm and the bottle, pump and pouch have been produced by Rexam, currently called Nemera.

Delpharm is not producing the gel any more. Besins is responsible for the current production line, both in Belgium and France.

The most recent versions available are the conical bottle with a green square 🟩 and the cylindrical bottle with a white lid. This cylindrical bottle is produced by a different manufacturer, Lablabo.

The gel inside them are supposed to be the same, both produced by Besins, but because they are manufactured at different locations, they might not be exactly the same.

Azaleah · 14/08/2023 15:02

@agnesmartin Thanks 😊

Azaleah · 14/08/2023 16:08

Peripenny · 13/08/2023 17:08

Hi, have never posted before. I wanted to add my experience with Oestrogel, as I also believe the new batch with the white lid is not the same. I'm 49 and I've been using the gel for 18 months - my very first bottle was Oestrodose, then following that it was Oestrogel with turquoise lid (orange square) for 9 months (using 2 pumps per day at first but gradually up to 4 pumps to get on top of symptoms). For the last 7 months it has been Oestrogel turquoise lid (green square) 4 pumps per day, and I've felt pretty great and back to myself. On the 9th Aug (5 days ago) I started a new bottle, this new smaller design in cylindrical bottle with a white lid, batch starting with a 7. I've had a headache every day, palpatations, had trouble sleeping, hip knee and elbow pains, felt too hot and then I started bleeding by the 3rd day of the new bottle! I had a Mirena coil fitted when I started the gel, but up to that point I still had regular periods. After about 9 months with the coil, all spotting and breakthrough bleeding and periods stopped. So this return of bleeding and all the other perimenopause symptoms I've been free from until this new batch is definitely more than coincidental. Will be calling my gp in the morning for advice. Luckily I do have 1 bottle of my 'old' turquoise lid gel in the back of my cupboard to use.

Thanks for posting!

Your experience is evidence that the gel in the cylindrical bottle (Lablabo) is not being as effective as the gel in the conical bottles (Rexam/Nemera) irrespective of an orange or green square.

My guess is:

The gel manufactered by Besins + the Lablabo bottles (after June 2022) = less absorption and/or less amount of estradiol per pump.

The gel manufactured by Delpharm + the Rexam/Nemera bottles (orange square) = more absorption and/or more amount of estradio per pump.

The gel manufactured by Besins + the Rexam/Nemera bottles (green square) = a bit less effective than the gel produced by Delpharm.

The gel manufactured by Delpharm + the Lablablo bottles (before June 2022) = good gel regarding estradiol content and balanced with other ingredients but less estradiol per pump, due to the Lablabo pump and pouch design.

That said, there's also the possibility that the pumps and bottles being used by Besins after the shortages are old designs.

Lablabo's pump design has changed and Nemera's products catalogue shows the 'B-shape' bottle is not supposed to be used for hormonal applications.

Sorry for posting too much information 😇

Azaleah · 14/08/2023 16:59

Maybe we should contact this lady.

https://be.linkedin.com/in/benedictelories/en