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Menopause

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Warned about cancer risks when prescribed HRT today

75 replies

FelicityFlowers · 03/11/2021 19:03

My GP prescribed me HRT and progesterone today, via a telephone call. We were talking it all through and she said 'you are aware of the increased risk of breast and ovarian cancer aren't you?'

I said my understanding was that there was no increased risk of either cancer and she said that wasn't the case.

So.. who's right? I didn't particularly want to get into a debate as I'm not a doctor but I was a bit Hmm

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 04/11/2021 16:55

The other thing that is really important is that the use of Utrogestan is now common yet it was not used in the vast majority of research papers. There was some research recently in the press where they number of women using Utrogestan in the trial was 58 compared to hundreds of 1000s on the old types of progestin.

This is true, but Utrogestan doesn’t feature largely in recent studies because it is relatively new. Essentially, the first generation of women using this type HRT are the guinea pigs. So risk is unknown until enough women have been taking it long enough to track whether there is any increased risk of breast/ovarian cancer and if so, whether it is less, more or the same. It is designed to be less risk, but only time will provide the proof.

This is not uncommon. Super sized tampons were sold and used by women for a few decades...and studying them using it is what revealed the risk for TSS. And then tampon size was regulated down to avoid vast majority of the TSS risk in response.

High dose contraceptive pills caused blood clots and stroke deaths in women....learnt by studying the first adopters and seeing what happened to their health. So now we have lower dose contraception called “mini pill” when first introduced, but now all pills are technically mini pills.

HRT is no different. They are adjusting it based on studies of real women using it to make is safer and safer. But each generation is the guinea pig for the next generation. Not saying this is good or bad, it is just reality, we are lucky that HRT is safer than it was, but also our experiences will help make it even safer for our daughters.

So yes, as with many things in life they are a moving target of (usually) continuous improvement.

baobun14 · 04/11/2021 17:03

Yes I agree it's a constantly changing picture and not black and white .
I do feel that some quarters present HRT as though you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't take it and that isn't true .

WhereAreWeNow · 04/11/2021 17:06

@PlanDeRaccordement I thought the mini pill was a progesterone only pill (POP) rather than a low dose combined oral contraceptive (estrogen plus progesterone) which is what most pills are.

PlanDeRaccordement · 04/11/2021 17:11

@baobun14
Yes I agree that there are proHRT types that tend to attribute every middle aged ill to perimenopause or menopause and gloss over or deny the real risks. Similarly, there are antiHRT types on the other end as well who will attribute every middle aged ill to aging or depression and exaggerate the risks.

The truth is in the middle.

Personally, I have high risk of breast cancer already due to family history and genetics and so to me, any extra risk no matter how tiny I am biased towards avoiding it if at all possible. I think compared to a woman with low risk breast cancer to begin with, that I would put up with more menopause symptoms than she. If that makes sense?

It’s an individual decision and there is no universal right or wrong for all women.

Ozanj · 04/11/2021 17:14

My cousin recently spoke to a menopause consultant who said is no increased risk of cancer.

PlanDeRaccordement · 04/11/2021 17:16

[quote WhereAreWeNow]@PlanDeRaccordement I thought the mini pill was a progesterone only pill (POP) rather than a low dose combined oral contraceptive (estrogen plus progesterone) which is what most pills are.[/quote]
Yes it is that now. But the doses of estrogen and progesterone were reduced in all pills. That’s what I meant and what we used to call even the reduced hormone ones that were not progesterone only. I think there is something being lost in translation.

baobun14 · 04/11/2021 17:28

@PlanDeRaccordement
I actually did try patches at one stage . I found them brilliant at first ( although they made me feel 'fuzzy' and woozy) but slowly more unpleasant side effects appeared ( caused by progesterone I presume ) and I thought sod that. I didn't want to start trying lots of other combinations either .
I found though that the late peri stage was worse than post menopause . I hope that gives hope to some .

PlanDeRaccordement · 04/11/2021 17:32

@baobun14
Gives me hope :). I’m in perimenopause now. So far, putting up with it.

JinglingHellsBells · 04/11/2021 17:40

@PlanDeRaccordement If you would like the link to the Utrogestan studies I am happy to link to them. (Not sure if you are considering using HRT or just joining in a debate.)

There are some very relevant studies on it involving large numbers of women. However, a lot of recent reports which hit the press, included the flawed WHI, the MW, and even non-peer reviewed studies.

The Lancet report which was the latest to be discussed included 58 women using Utrogestan (compared with a French study of over 30K.)

I'm not dismissing that there may be risks, but the most informed drs (including Nick Panay @baobun14) say that they inform women of the risks (and he's on record in an interview discussing the stats) and then allow women to make up their own minds, taking into account their medical history and future risk of using or not using it.

PlanDeRaccordement · 04/11/2021 17:46

@JinglingHellsBells
Yes, please do post the link. I am always considering HRT...constantly. But as I say, my risk is already so high I wonder if it would be the grain of sand that tips the scale and I die of breast cancer like so many of my female relatives have. So I am trying my best to put up with menopause process. It is tempting though that short term use reduces risk even more and so...if I can hold out until I cannot...not a bad compromise?

baobun14 · 04/11/2021 20:26

@PlanDeRaccordement
I was looking at this document recently .

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32381-3/fulltext

PlanDeRaccordement · 04/11/2021 22:36

Thank you @baobun14

JinglingHellsBells · 05/11/2021 08:14

@PlanDeRaccordement I completely understand your concerns. It's a hard call and I guess for most women they 'resort' to HRT if their symptoms make life very difficult OR if they have underlying other risks which HRT may prevent getting worse.

Here are the links.
The first one is a response to the link you left and the 2nd is another trial.
www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3873/rr-2

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2211383/

Regarding the Lancet report, this came in for a huge amount of criticism at the time it was published. The BMS constructed a very robust reply which you can find on their website.

There are 2 videos here on the BMS site from breast specialists.

thebms.org.uk/publications/bms-tv/

PlanDeRaccordement · 05/11/2021 09:03

Thank you too @JinglingHellsBells. Will read through all that at lunch break. :)

baobun14 · 05/11/2021 09:29

@JinglingHellsBells I'm not sure that your links are responding to the same article . I was looking at an article dated April 2021 in the lancet which described an increased causal link with HRT and breast cancer.
And while I'm sure the drs in the BMS are very eminent they are menopause experts and I try to include the views of oncologists too when I'm researching .

Verite1 · 05/11/2021 09:34

Does anyone have any studies about the risk of ovarian cancer as I have a family history of such (although I understand still no clear conclusion whether hereditary or not). My GP said no increased risk which I thought was the latest info, but I note some on this thread are saying there are.

JinglingHellsBells · 05/11/2021 09:52

[quote baobun14]@JinglingHellsBells I'm not sure that your links are responding to the same article . I was looking at an article dated April 2021 in the lancet which described an increased causal link with HRT and breast cancer.
And while I'm sure the drs in the BMS are very eminent they are menopause experts and I try to include the views of oncologists too when I'm researching .[/quote]
Have a look at the link to the videos which I left for you. There are two breast specialists on 2 videos. They are not 'in the BMS' they are independent consultants.

baobun14 · 05/11/2021 09:53

I have a family history of ovarian cancer too . GPs and the consultant at the menopause clinic said the age when the cancer occurred is important. If late 70s for example then it is less of an issue .
I did get 'cramps' - ovarian cyst type feeling if you've ever had one of those ,when taking HRT for a short time and I did find it off putting .
The experts I've read say the risk is there - it is small but they need more info ( so it may increase is how I interpret that , being cautious ) plus I didn't find the HRT so great after a while.

baobun14 · 05/11/2021 09:54

@JinglingHellsBells , I didn't express myself clearly . I meant I like to read more opposing views rather than always going to a menopause platform

JinglingHellsBells · 05/11/2021 10:16

[quote baobun14]@JinglingHellsBells , I didn't express myself clearly . I meant I like to read more opposing views rather than always going to a menopause platform [/quote]
So are you saying that in your opinion, anything on a 'menopause' forum is biased in favour of HRT? And that's without watching the link?

I doubt that the BMS has invited only 'pro HRT' experts to their platform. That would be very unethical.

Also, oncologists deal with people after a diagnosis. You will find very little about making a choice, if that is what you are looking for. However, you might like to read Estrogen Matters by Avron Bluming, a US oncologist who says HRT does not cause cancer at all.

If you are considering HRT for yourself, you won't find any absolute answers. There are many shades of grey.

The stats at the moment are about probability.
At the moment, it appears from several studies that micronised progesterone has a low(er) risk compared to other types.

There are conflicting studies on HRT and also conflicting views of experts, but in the middle there is a consensus. That appears to be that natural progesterone is favourable with a very small risk and maybe none.

It's your choice ultimately. No one dr can give you absolutes. You need to weigh up the pros and cons for yourself, your other risk factors for other diseases of older age, and the quality of life you want while accepting a (possible) small risk.

JinglingHellsBells · 05/11/2021 10:19

@baobun14

I have a family history of ovarian cancer too . GPs and the consultant at the menopause clinic said the age when the cancer occurred is important. If late 70s for example then it is less of an issue . I did get 'cramps' - ovarian cyst type feeling if you've ever had one of those ,when taking HRT for a short time and I did find it off putting . The experts I've read say the risk is there - it is small but they need more info ( so it may increase is how I interpret that , being cautious ) plus I didn't find the HRT so great after a while.
The risk is tiny (the figures are out there ) and if you have a family history of OC you ought to be asking your GP for scans anyway every couple of years.

The risk with OC is that it's usually discovered late. With regular scans you can pick things up early.

baobun14 · 05/11/2021 10:45

@JinglingHellsBells ,
You mention risk factors for other diseases . From my reading of NHS guidance, HRT should not be offered as any form of preventative for other diseases .
In fact the only two groups who should take HRT without too much worry are those who have an early menopause ( to take them up to average menopause age) and those with a substantial risk of bone fracture due to early onset osteoporosis.
For the rest of us we are weighing up risks

baobun14 · 05/11/2021 10:48

@JinglingHellsBells , also I'm aware of the role of an oncologist and I'm not sure why you feel that the fact that they deal with treating cancer renders their views less relevant

JinglingHellsBells · 05/11/2021 10:59

[quote baobun14]@JinglingHellsBells ,
You mention risk factors for other diseases . From my reading of NHS guidance, HRT should not be offered as any form of preventative for other diseases .
In fact the only two groups who should take HRT without too much worry are those who have an early menopause ( to take them up to average menopause age) and those with a substantial risk of bone fracture due to early onset osteoporosis.
For the rest of us we are weighing up risks [/quote]
I didnt say it was used as a preventative as such.

I said- and any dr will tell you this- that if you have troubling symptoms and also have a predisposition to loss of bone (risk factors) or heart disease, that tips the balance.

Honestly, I could chat to you all day but have more to do!

Why not listen to the videos I suggested and you will learn a hell of lot more than asking me, in a much shorter time!

lljkk · 06/11/2021 21:20

@Verite1

Does anyone have any studies about the risk of ovarian cancer as I have a family history of such (although I understand still no clear conclusion whether hereditary or not). My GP said no increased risk which I thought was the latest info, but I note some on this thread are saying there are.
i like this summary by Women's Health Concern.

with 5 years of HRT use, there could be 1 additional ovarian cancer per 1,000 users and 1 additional death per 1,700 users among women of all ages

After 5 years of HRT there is only a 0.1% increase in ovarian cancer and less than 0.6% additional deaths.

I dunno about you, but I don't think I've been as special as 1/1000 for anything in my life. I wouldn't worry about 1/1000 risk if HRT otherwise suited me very well.

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