Menopause and painful joints

[embracethegrey]

When I started going through the menopause, I developed extremely painful joints. After many months of agony and feeling like a very old woman (I was 53) I saw my GP who prescribed painkillers, which did very little. After much research on the web I found natural progesterone cream. A month after using the cream, I was almost pain free and after another couple of months I was back to my old self. It was for me a lifesaver and it had the added benefit of stopping my hot flushes. The product I used stated it would take 6 weeks for symptoms to improve, so don't expect an overnight improvement it will take time to kick in. I hope someone finds this beneficial.

well, it's good you are feeling better but It's coincidence. The type of progesterone in that cream cannot be converted and used by applying to the skin. IF it were to work you could develop other problems like atrophy of the endometrium because you'd be using progesterone without any estrogen.

www.hotzehwc.com/2011/08/wild-yam-cream-is-not-the-same-as-natural-progeste/

I started using bio identical progesterone (with 2%) estrogen,10 months after starting the menopause. The excruciating joint pain started almost immediately and continued until approx a month after starting the cream. I can assure you it was no coincidence. I haven't experienced any side effects from using this cream and continued to use it for 10 years. I stopped using it 2 months ago, with no return of joint pain. You only have to read thousands of user reviews to know this works. My GP didn't suggest I shouldn't use it, when I consulted him prior to use.

I started using bio identical progesterone (with 2%) estrogen,10 months after starting the menopause.

So you used it for 10 years when you were 53?

Reviews are anecdotal I'm afraid. Many women find their symptoms go away whatever, and there is also a very powerful placebo effect. The only real proof is double blind trials and progesterone cream rubbed on the skin has not shown to do anything.

Can you explain a bit more? what was 2%- the progesterone or the estrogen?

In the UK, it's not possible to buy estrogen without a prescription either on its own or mixed with some other hormone
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If women use estrogen the progesterone cream (available by mail order) is not enough to oppose the estrogenic effect on the endometrium.

In your opinion, why can the cream not be converted transdermally Queen

It's not my opinion . It's science. Read the link in the first post from me. There is plenty of other evidence online. The body cannot convert diosgenin (in wild yam= 'progesterone cream') into progesterone.

Micronised progesterone which is only on prescription could be put into a cream but a) it's prescription only as progesterone can cause serious side effects like blood clots and b) it would have to be applied in bucket loads to actually reach serum levels that made any difference.

So do you mean that natural progesterone creams have no effect in the body at all?

Oh wait I just clicked the link. You’re talking about wild yam cream not actual progesterone such as Natpro? Yes wild yam does not convert.

Put it this way....if natural progesterone cream were available in the UK on prescription and it worked my gynae would be the first to give it to me, because taking oral micronised progesterone ( which I use) does have side effects ( as does using it vaginally.) But the facts are that to have any effect, it's impossible to get enough into the body through the skin.

The use of Serenity cream which I assume is what this poster is talking about has been discussed ad nauseum on meno forums . All the research is done by the companies who make it and there is no independent research showing it works.

Natpro? Is this in the UK? If so, same answer above applies.

We don't normally have progesterone in our bodies anyway except after ovulation. The whole idea behind selling it is based on 'estrogen dominance' theory which is not something that exists. It was started in the US in order to sell the prog cream! You will not find any meno consultant who believes in that theory or the use of creams.

Ironically, many women who use micronised progesterone as part of their HRT, find it a PITA and would give anything to be off it! It makes women drowsy, can give PMS symptoms, and a lot of other things that aren't welcome.

If women want to rub it on their skin and think it's helping, fine, but there is no evidence it does.

Natpro is originally US but they ship to uk. There’s quite a few natural progesterone USP creams but Natpro was developed by Wray Whyte - her website is progesterone therapy. (She died about a year ago at 69) She was definitely influenced by the works of Katherine Dalton on progesterone, and possibly even Dr Lee. She argued that oral progesterone is destroyed in the stomach by acids (a popular opinion amongst ‘experts’ despite it still being prescribed) and is about 80% useless. Yet they say as it’s micronised this helps the absorption? Some have success, some feel nothing, quite confusing. I’m not sure if she was a fan of pessaries but she was certainly a fan of using the cream vaginally. She advocated high doses of the cream (not just her own but recommends other brands and any from a compounding pharmacy on prescription) to ‘dominate’ the estrogen (for example 400-600mg for severe cases of pms or menopausal flushing) before lowering the amount to about 100-200mg once symptoms have been overcome. Do you have any opinions on the work of Wray if you’ve come across her?

Also if you have ever researched these people too, do you have any opinions on Katherine Dalton or Dr Lee’s thoughts on progesterone usage? (Unlike Wray Whyte, Dr Lee advocated low amounts of the cream iirc, about 40mg.)

My gp’s and gynaecologists know very little on the matter and I had to help myself in the end unfortunately. I should note I’m 33 and not menopausal, I was using for other issues. During my time on Natpro I had great success with many things, it absolutely changed my life after 14 years of suffering, but also I had undesirable side effects from it too and thus I’ve been left quite on the fence with my feelings regarding hormone therapy. I feel pretty sure I will struggle through menopause and so I still research the topic occasionally.

Would you care to describe how the oral micronised pg helps you? How do you feel on it? What were the side effects? (If you’d rather not share of course I understand)

Ah I just saw your last message that answers a few things.

In which case would you say that the reason micronised progesterone can cause pms symptoms is because it stimulates estrogen receptors, or are you of the kind that does not believe in the receptor theory? (I have no opinion, I just don’t know.)

Fwiw nobody actually knows anything 100% despite research, studies, data, anecdotes etc. The human body is complex and we still know very little about it. Every leading scientist I’ve researched believes they are 100% correct....even when their theories or data conflicts with one another. I’ve learned over the years to remain open minded and be willing to accept new information.

I’m currently reading Dr Lara Briden’s thoughts on hormones. Quite interesting. Her Period Manual is a good book which I highly recommend to anyone menstruating and having hormonal issues.

I'll try to answer some of this!

She was definitely influenced by the works of Katherine Dalton on progesterone, and possibly even Dr Lee. She argued that oral progesterone is destroyed in the stomach by acids (a popular opinion amongst ‘experts’ despite it still being prescribed) and is about 80% useless

Oral progesterone is not destroyed in the stomach and in fact the research says that taking with food increases bioavailability.
It is poorly absorbed generally which is why 200mgs (used to be 300mgs) is taken daily as part of some HRT regimes. It is certainly not useless. I've used it for 6 years and have uterine scans which show it works. It would not be licensed otherwise.

Yes I have read Whyte and disagree. There is no such thing as estrogen dominance . No current researcher / menopause specialist believes it. Meno symptoms occur when estrogen falls. Women who have had a hysterectomy and use estrogen only HRT do not need progestogens. Using estrogen only should- if you believe the dominance idea- make them feel terrible when in fact they feel great!

Some women have been prescribed progesterone creams by 'alternative drs' as part of HRT and there have been cases of hyperplasia because the cream is too weak and ineffective to prevent hyperplasia.

I think it's important to be sure we are talking about the same things.
In women who are young, there may be SOME positive response to using a progesterone cream but there is no real evidence it helps.

But the wild yam cream cannot be absorbed.

In women who are post meno and using estrogen as well, transdermal progesterone doesn't work and is dangerous.

In women who are in peri menopause, progesterone cream in its own won't do anything because the symptoms are due to low estrogen.

There is a huge amount of pseudo science around progesterone and a lot of people trying to make a lot of money out of it. It's a topic that comes up time and again on forums because women are hoping to find something 'natural'. All licensed HRT is 'natural' but it is in prescribed quantities and there are strict QC around it which you don't get with products bought OTC.

I had hoped to help someone with my experience of bio identical Progesterone and I hope my original post does just that. I got the cream from www.wellsprings - health.com There is a wealth of information and customer reviews and even doctors comments, one of which is a Dame! I don't believe I experienced a placebo effect as I started using the cream with hope but a healthy amount of scepticism thrown in. This may not help everyone as we are all different and react differently to anything we put into our bodies. You can only try.

oral progesterone is destroyed in the stomach by acids how does the progesterone contraceptive pill work then?

Every single Q&A on their website is (to put it mildly) is misinformation.

Some are downright lies I'm afraid.

The NOS (National Osteoporosis Society) did a survey a couple of years ago on progesterone and bone density and found no improvement.

The argument by Wellsprings that manufacturers only prescribe synthetic HRT is a lie. Natural progesterone is available on the NHS.

There are many other mis-truths across the whole site.
How can a cream get natural progesterone into my body?
'Transdermal application' is the method of delivering substances into the body through the skin. It is used in products such as nicotine patches and pain-killing gels.

When taken orally, natural progesterone gets removed almost entirely by the liver. When applied in cream form over 90% of the progesterone content is absorbed.

Errrr yes and so does alcohol and a lot of other things we ingest. But that doesn't mean they have no effect.

Notice the clever use of words here 'gets removed almost entirely by the liver'. Of course it does as the liver is the body's filtering system. Oral progesterone - Utrogestan - is taken in a quantity which means it is effective.

And although the skin can absorb products, it can't absorb progesterone made from yams.

As for Dame Shirley Bond....her work has been shown to be non scientific and no respected gynaecologist would endorse her work.

sorry but what annoys me is women being mislead by pseudo science and untruthful claims ( as well as very selective and out dated research which that site links to.)

In reply to your last post Queenofthenights. I found it worked for me and many other people around the world have also found it beneficial. We can only know something for sure by experiencing it.

Embrace there no medical evidence for progesterone cream and it is not approved in Europe. And of course it cannot convert into estrogen or act as estrogen.

Well that's good . The thing is you would never know if your symptoms would have gone anyway. You can't do a trial on one person!

What I object too very strongly is the misinformation on their site and how they have all these 'scare' tactics about licensed drugs (HRT) which are not synthetic at all.

It's just sad that many women will waste their money .

I found the opposite, it actually gave me sore joints, I've come off it now as also felt sick.