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Menopause

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Menopause without HRT?

373 replies

twoheaped · 07/08/2017 08:43

Is it possible to go through the menopause without HRT?

I have never taken the contraceptive pill, or used a chemical device as I just didn't really fancy the idea of taking hormones.
Now I guess the menopause will be coming in the next few years and I have found little information on going it alone, as such.
Can it be done? I'm still not keen on the thought of taking hormones.

OP posts:
larrysmum · 07/08/2017 21:50

I need to add I have no hot flushes at all. Just what I have mentioned.

Thanks

danTDM · 07/08/2017 22:01

Larrysmum
I was exactly the same age!

You must take HRT as you will feel better but more importantly protect bone and heart health.

I srill have anxiety but that's peob me Grin

I have an 8 year old and need to be a fun mama.

danTDM · 07/08/2017 22:03

yes, me too no hot flushes but ZERO energy, wake up tired!
I think we still have some hormones, but they decrease. I am now 46.
No periods at all.

larrysmum · 07/08/2017 22:04

Thanks dan, I'm seriously considering it. I want to be me again Smile more so for my little ones.

larrysmum · 07/08/2017 22:04

Dan when did your periods stop?

danTDM · 07/08/2017 22:05

HRT helps a lot! Smile

danTDM · 07/08/2017 22:07

Oh, at 43.5
Just stopped. That was it.
Then I spoke to Polly here and she sorted me out, this year. Thank God.

PollyPerky · 07/08/2017 22:25

Warwick Please link to the evidence that transdermal estrogen is safer for breast cancer.

Sorry to disagree but NICE doesn't say this. Transdermal is safer re. blood clots.

You have also got this the wrong way round

Women who have not had a hysterectomy generally only need to take estrogen alone to relieve their symptoms, although it depends on individual circumstances. Progestagens are necessary for women who have had a hysterectomy because they protect against ovarian cancer

Nope! Women with a uterus need progestogens to stop the uterine lining over-growing. It's nothing to do with ovarian cancer. Women who have had a hysterectomy use oestrogen-only HRT.

I've used transdermal HRT for almost 10 years and see one of the best meno consultants in the country. I've discussed this with them many times as well as researching about it for work.

There is a pecking order for progestogens:
MPA - highest incidence of BC
Norethisterone - next highest
Dydrogesterone - lowest

(This is from the NICE study / guidelines.)

And then Utrogestan - micronised progesterone - some research (French study) shows no increase in BC.

Giraffey1 · 07/08/2017 22:27

I just get the hot flushes / night sweats but don't seem to be prey to most of the other symptoms mentioned. I hesitate to pursue the HRT option because of this.

JaneJeffer · 07/08/2017 22:30

I couldn't be bothered with HRT. The thoughts of having a bleed now after finally escaping from periods is horrible.I never got on with any pill. I think I'm over the worst of the hot flushes and night sweats now. I don't know if there's any point asking the doctor about it. They didn't seem too interested when I mentioned peri symptoms.

larrysmum · 07/08/2017 22:42

I never really got on with any pill either but my aches and pains and feeling so old when I'm only 43 (just) is pointing me towards HRT, if only to protect my bones.

larrysmum · 07/08/2017 22:43

Oh and hopefully it will increase my sex drive, curb my mood swings and give me my energy back

junebirthdaygirl · 08/08/2017 00:10

Im late 50s . Began symptoms at 50. Hot flushes , some increased anxiety here and there, a bit of memory loss about little things. Nothing major. I upped exercise but not hugely. I took a supplement made for menopause and most symptoms gone now.
Only thing annoying me now is needing to go to the loo more often.

dishwasher71 · 08/08/2017 08:12

I was about 43 when my periods became erratic. I was about 44 or 45 when I stopped sleeping properly. At 46, I had had two periods in the previous year, interspersed with hot flushes every time I drank a hot cup of tea, and was starting to wake up boiling hot in the night. My libido had also shrunk to zero and by 6 p.m. each night I was so knackered that all I could do was sit on the sofa staring into space.

The two main reasons I went to the doctor to ask about hrt were because I'd heard it might help with the sleeplessness, and because I hoped it might help with the libido and thus save my marriage.

It did. My libido isn't huge these days, but I can at least tolerate dh being near me every now and then!

One of the good things I hadn't expected was the lift in mood also. I hadn't quite realised how miserable I had been - maybe that was because I never slept, of course, and now, on the hrt, I do. Who knows.

I am actually frightened about coming off it. I am 51 now, and the doctor hasn't said anything about that yet.....

randomer · 08/08/2017 08:20

I decided to go it alone. Now feel dreadful and on antidepressants.

Dignity7 · 08/08/2017 10:00

That's the difficult thing about menopause. Some sail through, some muddle through & some need help from HRT. Either way the best thing is so individual.

WarwickAlice · 08/08/2017 10:27

Hey PollyPerky,

I checked the evidence on transdermal versus oral estrogens. It looks like I overstated the benefits of transdermal estrogen in breast cancer risk (I couldn’t find much evidence for a benefit or a risk). Here is what I found in the International Menopause Society (IMS) 2016 guidelines:

“Currently available data imply no difference in risk [of breast cancer] between oral and transdermal routes of estradiol administration. However, there are not enough data from adequately powered clinical studies to fully evaluate possible differences in the incidence of breast cancer using different types, doses and routes of estrogen, type of progestogens and androgen administration.”

However, transdermals are associated with quite a few other benefits, including lower risk of venous thromboembolism (blood clots), stroke and weight gain. To avoid accusations of cherry-picking, I have stuck to reviews and international published guidelines here, and I’m happy to be corrected if I’m misrepresenting anything. Smile

[Review] Sood et al. Prescribing menopausal hormone therapy: an evidence-based approach. Int J Womens Health 2014;6 : 47–57. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897322/

“[T]he type of MHT modulates risk, because estrogen alone appears to decrease the risk of breast cancer while combination regimens with estrogen and progestogen have been shown to increase this risk after 3–5 years of use. The mode of delivery of estrogen is also important because, in contrast with oral estrogen, low-dose transdermal estrogen appears to be linked to a lower risk of cholecystitis, stroke, and deep venous thromboembolism.”

Evidence seems fairly clear (but not entirely) that estrogen alone does not increase breast cancer risk, but that combinations with progestogens does.

[Review] Santen. Menopausal hormone therapy and breast cancer. J Steroid Biochem Mol Bio 2014; 142: 52–61. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23871991

“These data suggest that estrogen alone neither decreases nor increases risk in younger women initiating therapy close to the time of menopause but decreases riskin older women. Both younger and older women experience an excess risk with estrogen plus a progestogen.”

Here are some excerpts from the NICE guidelines (NG23; www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng23) concerning use of transdermal versus oral HRT:

Long-term benefits and risks of hormone replacement therapy.
Excerpts from 1.5.1:
- the risk of venous thromboembolism (VTE) is increased by oral HRT compared with baseline population risk
- the risk of VTE associated with HRT is greater for oral than transdermal preparations
- the risk associated with transdermal HRT given at standard therapeutic doses is no greater than baseline population risk.

1.5.2: Consider transdermal rather than oral HRT for menopausal women who are at increased risk of VTE, including those with a BMI over 30 kg/m2.

Excerpts from 1.5.6:
HRT with oestrogen alone is associated with no, or reduced, risk of coronary heart disease
HRT with oestrogen and progestogen is associated with little or no increase in the risk of coronary heart disease.

1.5.7: Explain to women that taking oral (but not transdermal) oestrogen is associated with a small increase in the risk of stroke. Also explain that the baseline population risk of stroke in women aged under 60 years is very low.

Excerpts from 1.5.11:
- the baseline risk of breast cancer for women around menopausal age varies from one woman to another according to the presence of underlying risk factors
- HRT with oestrogen alone is associated with little or no change in the risk of breast cancer
- HRT with oestrogen and progestogen can be associated with an increase in the risk of breast cancer
- any increase in the risk of breast cancer is related to treatment duration and reduces after stopping HRT.

Many of these recommendations are also backed up by the 2016 IMS Recommendations on women’s midlife health and menopause hormone therapy, www.imsociety.org/manage/images/pdf/4429e3dd302aac259ad68c3be7f60599.pdf

“Oral estrogen has been associated with a small but significant increase in fat mass and a decrease in lean mass, whereas lean body mass and fat mass are unaffected by transdermal estradiol.”

“The risk of ischemic stroke with MHT may be related solely to oral therapy, with lower doses having a smaller risk and no significant risk occurring with transdermal therapy.”

“Epidemiological studies have not found any increased risk of VTE with use of transdermal estrogen. There is also strong evidence that the type of progestin associated with estrogen is of importance.”

“The incidence of breast cancer varies in different countries. Therefore, currently available data may not be applicable everywhere. The degree of association between breast cancer and MHT remains controversial.”

The possible increased risk of breast cancer associated with MHT is small and estimated at less than 0.1% per annum, or an incidence of 51.0 per 1000 women per year of use. 51+4 It is similar or lower than the increased risks associated with common lifestyle factors such as reduced physical activity, obesity and alcohol consumption.

Thank you for correcting me regarding estrogen + progesterone for women with a uterus, and estrogen only for women without – I had muddled the two! Here is what the NICE guidelines say about that:

1.4.2: Offer women HRT for vasomotor symptoms after discussing with them the short-term (up to 5 years) and longer-term benefits and risks. Offer a choice of preparations as follows:
- oestrogen and progestogen to women with a uterus
- oestrogen alone to women without a uterus.

Thanks for prompting me to revise my understanding here – it’s been a little while since I studied this area. It’s quite an active area of research these days.

twoheaped · 08/08/2017 16:07

Is HRT still extracted from mare's urine, or have they found a more ethical method?

OP posts:
danTDM · 08/08/2017 16:22

No, mine isn't. Absolutely not. That was before (although I think you can still get it Hmm)

You need to research a bit OP with our help too. But I think you have got lots of outdated info. The doctors do too Sad
Menopause matters is a great website, as is our own pollyperky Smile a font of knowledge.

PollyPerky · 08/08/2017 18:13

WarwickAlice
Yes those are the points in the NICE guidelines.
I've left links to those many, many times on this forum and quoted sections, as you have now.

It's pretty straightforward really :)

-Transdermal HRT is safer re blood clots. Is 'neutral' and each woman's baseline risk is unchanged. (This has been known for years.)
-Estrogen only HRT for women who have no uterus does not appear to raise risk of breast cancer and may even reduce it. (Again, this has been known for at least 20 years)
-Risks of HRT using combined HRT do not apply anyway to women under average age of menopause. So the only time to 'start counting' is after age 51.

PollyPerky · 08/08/2017 18:17

twoheaped the only types of HRT that are made with mares' urine are those whose brand name starts with PRE (Premarin and Prempak.)
Some out of date GPs still prescribe them but you can do a lot to educate yourself and ask for what you want.

Have a look at the website Menopause Matters and use the menu bar to look at treatments, risks and types of HRT. There is masses on the site if you follow the links and the sub-pages in the menu.
Also read the blog on the Home page by consultant Dr Currie.

Crispsheets · 08/08/2017 18:21

I've been on HRT for years...Im 57. Planming to move onto conti patches next month. HRT has made me feel normal. I have a great sex life too. Grin

PricklyBall · 08/08/2017 18:41

twoheaped, like you I did worry about artificial hormones (having always had very bad reactions to the contraceptive pill) but, having also watched my mother go through an utterly grim menopause, decided to give HRT a whirl if the symptoms got too bad. I got to the stage where the sleep deprivation due to the night sweats and insomnia driven by wildly fluctuating hormones was so bad I went to the GP. I'm now on HRT and for me it's been the best thing since sliced bread. I started on Prempak (old GP, as Polly says - though he was a damn good one), and it was okay for me. Have just switched to Femoston (Prempak is no longer available), and I would say the progesterone half of the cycle is much better on Femoston (it's a non-androgen-derived progesterone).

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide.

HollyBuckets · 08/08/2017 18:44

Is it possible to go through the menopause without HRT?

I did. Hardly any symptoms apart from it being much easier to gain weight, and rotten sleep quality. Sometimes (it's getting rarer) my face feels really hot, as if I'm having a prolonged blush.

But looking back, the worse symptoms were emotional/psychological, and occurred in the couple of years before I stopped actually menstruating. So I can only recognise the panic, anxiety, and general sense of not being at ease with myself, afterwards. But I was also doing a big job move, relocation to a place that feels far from home + huge house renovation. So I put my anxiety down to all that.

But I'd love to get my ability to sleep and wake up refreshed back. I exercise every day, don't tend to drink coffee after 10am, and have a lovely calm bedroom. I still wake up feeling tired ... But I doubt HRT will help with that.

I think I've just been lucky. But also, I have an absorbing & satisfying job, which I'm now very good at, and I'm enjoying the ability in my 50s not to care what anyone thinks. Life's too short. I was never like that 20 years ago. So although I look bak & see there were effects/symptoms, I was at the same time, forging ahead with my work. And I think that buffered me from the effects being really bad. I didn't have time to think about my hormonal/reproductive health!

mummyretired · 08/08/2017 18:48

I had all the annoying symptoms but wouldn't dream of medicating for something that's just annoying. It doesn't last forever and I've felt great ever since (several years now). I was careful to keep a healthy lifestyle and avoid alcohol and caffeine, and those habits have stuck.