The RAGE!!!!!!!!! - Why?

[BlogOnTheTyne]

Does anyone here have a link to any book/website that can explain exactly what hormones and neurotransmitter interaction cause The Rage in perimenopause/menopause?

I am reeling and steeped in guilt, after yet another horrible explosion at my DCs yesterday - definitely hormone related. If I could understand better exactly what was going on in my brain/body, I think this might help.

I have a vaguely scientific/biology background and so really want to understand the biological basis for the anger I'm experiencing. Is it progesterone, testosterone, dopamine, noradrenaline, seratonin?????

Another question - are there any books out there for DCs to read to help them understand that it's not their fault - but simply mum's hormones that are turning her into The Wicked Witch of the North, every month?

why would knowing the biology help?

I have a good book writeen by my gynae on meno called Your Change Your choice, but I don't think ti includes the info you want- can chack.

have you googled? would have thought this was available somewhere online.

As for your DCs- how old are they?

Thanks Ameilagrey. I've got that book but I'm looking for something more academic as I find that knowing exactly WHY something is happening can help to manage it - eg like when anyone in the family is ill, if I know what it is and why, then that helps to reduce anxiety and adopt a more coping attitude.

There seems to be a lot written about the biological basis of other, more physical symptoms like hot flushes but not about the interaction between experienced anger and what's going on biologically to induce this, in which case, I expect many women like me, will be left with the feeling of, "this is my fault and I should be managing it better".

I want to be reading something that says, "if you were able to inject synthetically, this 'natural' cocktail of chemicals/hormones, found in perimenopausal/menopausal women, into anyone else's body - men included - they'd all be having the same surges of anger, no matter what their original personality or context of their lives".

Are there any medics on this forum who might steer me in the right direction? I'll google again but didn't find anything v specific last time I tried.

Dcs are 10, 11 and 12.

well it's the progesterone in the 2nd half of the cycle that causes anger etc but I don't have a clue how!

I don't see how helping would really help either TBH.

Blog, Not sure if you did find anything but I would also be interested to know the scientific reasons behind PMS symptoms which do appear to get much, much close as you reach the menopause.

PMS symptoms can affect a great many women and can impact quality of life significantly yet there appears to be limited knowledge/effective treatments.

I think it should be possible for me to go to a gp or do a self test (like insulin testing) and determine my hormone levels levels and therefore what I need to do to correct them.

I have tried high dose evening primrose and over a period of time it has reduced symptoms. I also have to accept that I can't get over tired so I have to do less and rest more. It's completely frustrating but has improved moods.

Smum99, I haven't yet found anything specific that tells me things like, "...as hormone X increases, interacting with neurotransmitter Y, brain area Z then interacts with brain area A, causing a feeling of irritation/anger...etc etc"

This is the kind of thing I'm looking for - sort of a specialist medical text book. I really think this would help someone like me, to know exactly what's going on and when and how. It's like if I had chicken pox, I could be really, really clear about how the spots are caused by the virus and to expect them to itch. It doesn't change the spots/symptoms but at least you know what's going on and why.

I think it would also help other women and also allow us to use a different 'language' when explaining to family, instead of just saying, "I'm a bit hormonal/I've got PMT/It's my time of the month". If instead I could say, "Actually, my progesterone levels have risen and this has caused my dopamine to deplete (this is made up - not what actually goes on), so my limbic system is making me feel and express more irritation than usual."

I know there are hormone levels you can get tested at the GPs but I think you have to have these tested consistently at different days of the monthly cycle and they also vary and can only give a very blunt indication of where you're at in perimenopause/menopause. I'd like something a lot more precise that indicates ie that I'm say 2 yrs away still from menopause.

I've recently made a life change that has definitely helped reduce the rage but it's still there and maybe it'd be more precise to say that it's somehow allowed me more internal 'space' to step back from the rage and see it happening rather than fall straight into it. But even then, I'm really aware that it's there at specific times in my monthly cycle and not there at others and isn't really dependent on what's happening - but much more a chemical/hormonal thing.

It's like being injected with a drug and you know it's having an effect but you can barely do anything about it but 'ride it out'.

Is there anyone medical on here who could point me in the direction of a textbook/medical paper specialising in menstrual cycle/perimenopause/menopause? In my case, I still think it would help enormously to know what was going on and exactly how my hormones are interacting with my neurotransmitter systems and affecting exactly which areas of my brain and how the whole lot translates into experienced emotions.

Why not make an appt with a good gynae- dr who wrote the book?- and ask them?

I don't think your curiosity over this is "normal" TBH!

It seems very obsessive. I'm all for finding out about things and being proactive for my own health.

You can have tests which show how far you are off meno- these tests are available and usually used by women who may want to juggle career/babies and shows how many years they have to conceive.

But I still wonder if you would really find all this knowledge comforting? Can you simply not accept that certain hormones affect mood etc and it's something you have to live with?

Have you talked to your GP about this? I have my bouts of "The Rage" and it's pretty horrible, but not to the level that I feel the need to buy my kids a book to understand why I'm a witch sometimes.

What I'm saying is yes, you can try to understand the science and yes, that might help but don't feel you have to struggle on in silence. Talk to your doctor - talk to more than one if you need to. It sounds much worse than it needs to be - I don't know what solutions are out there but surely it's worth exploring?

I really, really don't think this is something you need to explain to your kids.

Don't know if your DCs are girls or boys, but having to explain raises the whole issue of periods, etc etc- do they really need to share your pain?

I think I'd be tempted just to say "Sorry, I'm just a bit ratty today/this week- nothing to do with anything you have done."

I think any info is likely to burden them, not help them understand.

maybe as Hassled suggests you could talk to your GP and possibly take some kind of medication/supplements or make major changes to your diet/lifestyle if this is such a huge issue for you.

Why isn't it normal an is a sign of obsessiveness to want to understand exactly what - and why - goes on in our bodies?!! (LOL) Ameliagrey, I've never had that response to curiosity about biology ever before. Yes, I do accept that certain hormones affect mood and we need to live with this but don't you think it's hugely helpful to know exactly what hormones and how they interact with brain chemistry and the amygdala/ the limbic system and really 'get a handle' on what's going on?

My DCs are fascinated and constantly asking all kinds of questions about how the brain works, how biology interacts with the mind etc etc and in my family background, there are a lot of medics. or people in allied professions. So we're all used to talking about and understanding how body/mind works. DCs (all boys) know all about menstruation, gender differences etc etc and seem to find it helpful to know that if I've lost my temper with them, it's because of progesterone levels, not because of them!

Recently, when I've been irritable because of the stage I'm at in my menstrual cycle, it's been v helpful for me and everyone else to be able to voice the fact that my 'hormones are interacting with my brain chemistry and making mum like a prickly porcupine'. The more I explain why I'm moody to my DCs, the more they feel able to see it as a biological thing and not the underlying 'me' and then I also feel more separate from the mood rather than dragged along with it.

So I do find that greater knowledge leads to greater liberation. Is that really abnormal? I never thought of myself as anything other than average

No one specialises in gynaecology in the wider family however and my late mother suffered awfully during her menopause.

I'm feeling a lot better myself, since making some life changes anyway but am still fascinated and would find it v useful to know precisely what goes on that elicits certain reactions in myself and other women. I'm not inclined to use a gynaecologist's valuable time just to ask them specific questions and am sure I can find the answers by doing some research myself but as MN is such a fund of brilliant information and there are lots of intelligent women posting here, then I thought I'd try this forum in the first instance.

I actually think this is partly a feminist issue and maybe should have posted in that section because I think that 'women's problems' have been under researched and when the medical profession was male-dominated, women were often seen as 'weaker' just because they'd have hormonally induced mood swings at different times of the month. I find knowing exactly what is the biological basis of these moods, liberating and interesting and am keen to know more.

I've always found in life that if you understand why something is happening and exactly what's going on, then making sense of it frees you up to detach and have more choice and control. I want to be able to apply this principle more fully to my perimenopause.

I'm someone who rarely if ever has needed any medication other than occasional paracetemol and for me, being able to understand why I might be experiencing a pain and what it signifies has often been enough for me not to need a painkiller - eg period pains! I know that may not be the way that feels right for other people however. It's just what works for me. I don't think I'd ever contemplate taking HRT and have never been on the pill or anything like that at all.

Anyway, I already feel much better since my OP and am still interested in finding out more about the biological basis to my perimenopause. I think that women benefit and are strengthened by being able to understand exactly what happens in their bodies rather than just trusting the doctor who advises them to have all the answers. It's like when you take you car in to be serviced: if you passively accept the mechanic's view on what needs to be done, without knowing why, you're in a weaker position than if you have a working knowledge yourself of what might be going on!

I find that understanding liberates us from confusion and alleviates guilt and that's what propelled me to research the specifics of perimenopause and beyond.

Ignore the "why do you want to know - you are obsessed" brigade.

Apart from anything else, knowledge can make us feel more in control and can therefore help psychologically.

so why not make an appt privately with a gynae and ask all those things?

I agree with what you say- 99%- about knowledge being empowering etc etc.

BUT- I do think you are bordering on obsessive with your search for answers. The truth is- the answers may not even be there for the medical profession.

I still stand by the point that I think you are in danger of giving your DCs TMI about your own personal health issues when they are pre- pubescent- but that's a personal opinion and choice.

Give them another couple of years and they will _IMO- be highly embarrassed to know about your periods and problems.

I think you're being a bit hard on the op. I am a medical student and I like/need to know the intricate details of the science behind symptoms of illnesses, and this includes things I experience myself. For instance, I have endometriosis recently diagnosed and hadn't learnt much about it yet, so I did a lot of private study about it to understand it better, and it does help me cope with the symptoms. Seeing as the op has a scientific background, I don't see her request as strange. But sorry op I don't know much detail about the menopause yet!

And btw don't expect much from a gynae apt. After going for one for my endo, my doc wasn't very communicative, and tbh if I didn't already know a fair amount about it, I would have left that apt with no real clue what it was all about!

FWIW I have just googled "progesterone and mood swings" and there is loads of info there about serotonin levels being lower etc etc.

Also the gynae who wrote the book you have, has another book Reprodctive Endocrinology but it's out of print.

I think a browse of a good book store/online for medical students would sort out your search fora book on this topic- or an appt with a specialist who takes time to talk!

RealHousewife it depends who your dr is. Mine is wonderful and although I see him privately, he is one of the best in the UK and will happily spend ages telling me what i want to know.

Oh and one less point and I'll shut up, I also agree that women's problems are under researched and not taken seriously. Having suffered crippling pain all my life and made to feel that I should just cope, I have now discovered that my pelvis is riddled with adhesions and my uterus is now retroverted etc... And I also think that understanding your condition does help, for instance when depressed I realise that my serotonin is out if balnce and that I am not an inherently shit person...

I agree. I wish I could have seen one of the gynaes at my teaching hospital as they are all amazing, but it's not really appropriate. The spr I saw recently was frankly shit. I hope it's not him doing my next op, but I suspect it will be. I have no idea who it will be as he didn't tell me, in fact he didn't really explain anything in much detail. and call me obsessive, but I do like to know the details! Frankly, I feel I know far more about the patients I see on placements than I do about my own body and treatment! Anyway op, I'll stop going on (on the wine, can you tell?) hope you find the answers you're looking for, and I don't think you're weird!

I would like to know as well, and I don't think that it's odd to want to understand and explain this to others ...I will watch this thread with interest to see if anyone does know why. I get the ratty rages and find it a bit overwhelming (as do my nearest and dearest - poor things).

OP you said up thread that you had the book I mentioned- if you look at pages 68-69 there is some info about serotonins and androgens, and how light and exercise affect moods.

If you want really detailed info then you need a medical textbook written for medics, or a biochenistry text book. Which is where we came in...

I also understand your quest for knowledge. When I spoke to my GP she didn't have any knowledge and trotted out the age old treatments, stress, exercise blah, blah, and I think this is because PMS and women's medical issues are under researched.
Having just had a month where I have wanted to divorce my DH I know that my hormones are out of balance.

I believe PMS is similar to how duodenal ulcers were treated 20 years ago - avoid stress, spicy food, etc and then the infection (H. pyloria) was found to be the cause.

I'm going to go "off piste" here, and say GET YOUR THYROID/ TSH checked. I'm 46, suffered a lot of anxiety, rage frustration, increasingly tired etc, not able to solve a lot of problems, obsessing etc...and people told me it was The Menopause. In fact it turned out that for several years my thyroid gland had been malfunctioning, and getting worse. The gp only noticed when I had a test for aching limbs(checking for rheumatoid arthritis) and antibodies and TSH came back funny... Referred to endocrinologist and found I had thyroid disease, which was treatable with pills. Apparently it is often triggered by fertility drugs ( I had had IVF 10 years previously), but is very underdiagnosed anyway...

So as you say, there was a completely chemical reason for my mood swings, and yet I would never have guessed it was THAT chemical reason, not female hormones etc...

Get a detailed thyroid test, please.

Also, vitamin D deficiency was contributing to my mood swings. Due to me taking very few sunshine moments and never going on foreign holidays or exposing flabby bare flesh... Endo put me on Vitamin D too and told me to go somewhere sunny!

I would also like to understand more about why this happens. Since having children my periods have become very heavy, and I've started to experience 'The Rage' on certain days in the 2nd half of my cycle. I also feel like bursting into tears for no reason. Because I understand that it's hormonal I can just laugh it off and wait for the feelings to pass.

Ignore the anti-curiosity brigade!
I'm a scientist and have studied neuro-chemistry and neuro-psychology... and if it turns out you don't have thyroid disease and are suffering from hormonal and chemical imbalances in your brain because of the menopause, then I have to say, poor you, you do sound like:

1 you are having a rough time of it - and maybe need to take some antidepressants - SSRIs, EPO, Agnus castus, valerian hops and lemon blam, broad spectrum vitamin B and Magnesium etc
and that (and maybe very bluntly, based on your posts)
2 You are using your brain chemistry to behave as you wish in a very dis-empowering manner

The whole point of knowing what is going on exactly with your brain chemistry, is to STOP it affecting you adversely and to empower you to CHOOSE to do something other than fly into a rage.

Cognitive behavioural therapy will help you tremendously, as well as supplements and anti depressants.. I would contact your GP looking for a psychiatrist referral, if needed, to sort your self out in that respect.

And I would seriously think about telling your kids that although you feel rough that it doesn't give you an excuse to behave like a prickly porcupine, and that you are sorry for behaving badly. Model the behaviour you want them to practice. Think ahead, they'll be hitting puberty soon - do you really want a house full of people who feel entitled to fly into rages, because they have brain chemistry / hormonal imbalances? Could be very damaging in the long run..

I hope you get the balance right soon, and wish you perfect health.