overnight stay with no bedtime experience?!

[imamissandamummy]

after a bit of a sounding board here, to see what the general concensus is...

ex has had ad-hoc access over 3 yrs (child is 3), approx twice a month but missing quite a few of these. (i have 15 mnths written history of contact)
he went through a very demanding phase of saying he was taking dc for 'at least 2 nights' and i said he must build the time up before increasing so quickly.
he got v. angry but said he would try bedtimes at dc home to build up the contact. (that was 8 mnths ago and he's done it twice) child v. upset and screaming for me until 10.15pm when both times he has come to get me saying 'i cant do it, dc wants you'
well... the demanding phase has started again and he's refusing to put dc to bed at home, saying he has done it enough times and she will be fine, that dc is old enough to go with him now. quote-"im not waiting anymore"

he has done nothing to build up further contact or try bedtimes again and is refusing to do so.
he is manipulatve and a nasty bully, telling me 'you better watch out', 'you're going to regret this' if i say dc cant go.
i was advised to suggest bedtime at home before doing bedtime elsewhere by sol, but as he is refusing, dnt know what to do. sol is tooo expensive and not entitled to legal aid.

dc has now started saying 'i dont like you, go away, i dont want to go with you etc" to ex, which is all own words as i have never spoken badly of ex to dc or when in company of dc, and have always been positive on his visits. (worth noting here that ex will only carry out contact at his home which is almost 150 miles away - so in a typical 9.30-6 day with him, dc is in car for 5 hrs) which is why i think dc has started to build up this resentment for him as he will not take dc to park or swimming etc when dc asks him to, saying "you coming in daddys car or i wont be able to see you"

erm, what do i do? anyone? please?

I let my DD stay at grandma's without having practice runs at my house first.
I don't know - it does sound as though their relationship could benefit from some time together.
But maybe there's a back story I'm not aware of, as I'm wondering why your solicitor would say to do bedtime at your place.

Do you trust him with your DC? How is he with her?

it was because dc is not very comfortable around him. gets upset when knows he is coming, hides when he arrives, and ultimatley because they have not spent a lot of time together. their average contact consists of 5 hrs sat behind him in a car, and 3-3.5 hrs at his shared home. (he lives with gf, their dc, gf mum, and gf grandma)

and the twice a month contact was his directive - he said he couldnt spend any more time seeing dc, so goes from once-twice a month, to wanting at least 2 nights/3 days.

i think it would confuse me, let alone a 3 yr old.

ps: dc has lots of contact with our extended family and is happy to go to shops/park/for tea etc with any of them, but cries when ex tries to get in the car, as well as previously mentioned behaviour around him.

ive always said i was happy for overnight stays, but that it was important that dc shows confidence and comfortable in the situation first.

Hmmmmm it's a bit drastic but you could consider refusing contact and get your ex to take you to court and in turn you request cafcass get involved.

You do have very valid concerns IMHO. I am very pro regular contact and involvement be he doesn't not seem capable of putting his sons needs first. I would join families need fathers and ask their help, they can help you go through the court process and everything.

They are not just pro fathers despite their name.

i do trust him to some extent - has done some v.silly things in past but now dc is a bit older, his lack of common-sense and danger-perception is less important as dc is a sensible little thing.

ex is very slack in timekeeping and has brought d back on several occasions at 8.30 (instead of 6) without having had an evening meal. also brought dc back having wet self and not been changed

i thnk my main concern is how different it would be for dc and the distress shown on day visits makes me sad to thnk it would be magnified at an unfamiliar house at bedtime with ex mumbling around getting worked up cause dc wont go to sleep.

Just to start with, could you take DC over to their dad's. Maybe even hang around for a while, sort of settle them in.
Perhaps a couple of times without staying over.

He lives 150 miles away the op can't just pop over and settle him in.

You are being completely reasonable wanting your ex to build up a positive relationship with his ds before he goes and stays. If there was a positive relationship there then the ds wouldn't be upset about going to his house and then overnight stays would be possible.

The problem seems to be that your ds genuinely doesn't seem to want to spend time with his dad.

paisleyleaf - have suggested this, but im 'not allowed' to the house. it took him 8 mnths to even tell me his address :s
thnk hes scared ill bare all to his gf lol, i wouldnt!) but i suspect she knows not the 'real' him and he wants to keep it that way, so has said i must not try to make contact with her or go to the house.

also, its a bloomin long way to go to find im barred! ha.

cargirl, your right, dc genuinley does not want to see him, or speak on the phone to him.

my concern of this is why? at 3 yrs old can you have decided someone isnt worth it? - or is there somethng i dont know about the distress of going in the car with daddy?!

I think this is why I would go down the refusal of contact route. You seem to have tried very hard to encourage contact in a positive way yet your son is clearly very unhappy about it.

What is going on that your son is so unhappy about - shouting/smacking/bad mouthing you etc?

Please go to families need fathers and find out the process of court if you start refusing access.

It may well mean that your ex backs off as then he can just bad mouth you to everyone IYSWIM. Perhaps write to him and say that your son is continues to be very unhappy and distressed about seeing him and you no longer think it's in his best interests to be forced to see him therefore you are no longer prepared to make him available for contact and if he wishes to pursue it through the courts then that is fine with you.

Basically get through to him that you will not be bullied into it that he will have to go through the court process if he wants contact with his son. Just continue to be positive about your ex to your son, or at least not negative IYSWIM.

It's all very very sad, my ex and I get on well and have always had a fluid contact arrangement that has worked fantastically

i have friends who have fantastic arrangements with ex partners, going to parent evenings, parties etc together, and not flying off the handle if something else comes up which means a bit of swapping around.

(dc cant go to any parties that fall on ex's day as its not smthng that ex has organised!-he wnt even take dc, just continues with the long sad 300 mile return drive)

if i had just one whole day to spend once a fortnight (even if i had suggested it) to spend with my child, i would want to cherish EVERY minute, doing things that made my child happy. i just dont get his mentality

and cargirl, i didnt think that you could stop contact, isnt that being 'unreasonable'? i dont want to give him anything to fuel his anger. (note-anger is verbal, not physical)
and dont want anything to look bad on me if things end up in court - ie why did i refuse contact.

I would just do everything in writing, "Why did you refuse contact?" "Because my son does not want to go, he hides, he screams, he wants nothing to do with him and his father is now wanting to have him overnight and will be reasonable about building up positive contact experiences"

It's about your sons best interests and being forced to his dad at the moment doesn't seem to be in his best interests. I would hope that the fact you want their to be a positive relationship and increasing contact would show that you are not being unreasonable.

I would join FNF and see what advice you can glean from them.

Worst case scenario is that court will order contact alternate weekends and due to his age will probably recommend that you build up to this!

i dont think having your ex put him to bed at your hosue with you around is ever going to work - makes no sense.
if ds knows youa round of course he going to ask for you...

you could have ex stay at b and b nearby and have ds stay with him there?

i dont think you spending time with your ex - who you describe as angry manipulative bully is going to do you or ds any good - have to keep times with dad and times with mum separate - hopefully dad can focus on the child and not on you.

it just sounds mad that ds does 300 miles trip for few hours with dad - so in that respect sleepover makes sense - but clearly there confidence issues.

cest la vie - i wasn't 'around' either time. i had thought this as a possible problem so when ex brought dc back from day out, i was in our back room and he went upstairs and (tried) to do bath and bed, but dc still cried for me.
(i did not go up as did not want ex to think i was interfering; both times, ex came and asked me to go up "i cant do it, dc just doesnt want me there, dc too upset, dc needs you") now he seems to have forgotten this and says that now dc is 3, is old enough to go with him. i have referred to the (2!) previous times he has put dc to bed and he said that it had been fine!! :s

it is so unfamiliar for dc to have someone else at bedtime, so another house/bed/surroundings and person at bedtime is going to be upsetting at the best of times, but if theres at least been some build up in familiar surroundings, then it could make it a whole lot better.

im not trying to make things harder than they need to be, im just trying to show ex that bedtimes are tricky for dc and if he were 150 miles away, theres no way he could bundle dc up in the car and bring him where he wants to be.

cargirl, your approach does sound tricky nd risky, im more for trying to work it out but need him to see from dc point of view, but he literally puts fingers in ears and says 'im not listening to this sh*t'

anyone else got opinions/ideas on the situation please? just to let me know what you would do in same situation?

thanks for everyones replies so far x

Sadly I think he's the sort of person who perhaps will refuse/is incapable of seeing it from your dc point of view!

My only other thought is to agree for a long weekend, you take him up there and meet for a handover away from the house and then stay somewhere to a weekend break or something.

In a way perhaps your ex having him for a long weekend will give them the chance to do some nice things and perhaps his gf will be better at putting him to bed etc. You need to sell it to your ds as a positive adventure though.

cargirl, sure u dont know him? he is incapable/refuses to see it from dc point of view. horrible thing is, u can tell by the way he gets so angry that he knows its not fair, but that he jst doesnt care, as its what he wants to do, end of, no discussion.

the staying near them in a hotel option is a possibility i suppose, but not so appropriate with my work commitments as it would take up a whole weekend and i wouldnt get anything other than waiting around done.

(why can't ex put in the effort to make dc more comfortable with him?!?! ggrrrr)

ex is so unwilling to do anythng i suggest though, and always makes alternative plans to the ones i suggest - maybe if i suggest i stay at his, he might suggest a hotel then hey presto lol.

still looking for any others' ideas on what they think on the situation, please.

thanks x

Thing is - overnight contact seems like it would improve the contact for dc - less travelling all in one day, therefore (in theory at least) more quality time with Dad and certainly with his siblings. There will be at least 3 other adults there, and other children. If one of the problems is that DC hasn't spent enough time with Dad to be comfortable, then overnights seem like an ideal solution.

And the timekeeping issues - a bit tricky when you're dealing with that sort of distance - a journey that should take a couple of hours takes twice that time, and you'll be even later if you stop for something to eat/baby has fallen asleep so seems silly to stop...

Clearly, he's an immense knob for moving 150 miles away from his child, but it's a catch 22 situation, isn't it - they don't spend enough time together to get comfortable, but they're not allowed overnights until they are comfortable.

If it helps, my DSS went through some very similar behaviours at around the same age, even though he had been coming for overnights for over a year.

If your ex didn't care, he wouldn't drive 300 miles to see DC.

thanks tanga.

i hear what your saying, its just the thought of dc being as upset as at handover when it comes to bedtime
ex's mother has told me that dc has been upset for whole day when she was with them, and said dc kept asking for mummy, yet ex denied this!

its funny isnt it the 'wouldnt drive 300 miles to see dc if he didnt care' thing isnt it, because if he really did care, then surely he would want dc to be comfortable at bedtime and would see the distress that forced contact causes for dc.

unfortunaltey, the way he operates is that he takes dc to 'show' what a good father he is, but doesnt actually 'do' anything together - choosing the car option to drive to a town 150 miles away instead of saving those 5 hrs, and spending time closer to where dc lives. (he did move after dc was born and refuses to spend his time locally)

he likes to make a point.