I want to return to UK but what are the father's rights?

[HanBanan]

I'm planning to move back to the UK but want to prepare myself before I inform the father.

My child is 3 (almost 4 now). My Xp is rather slapdash in his approach to support and as such I can not afford to live in Spain any longer.
I receive no benefits and tho I work it is seasonal and very hard to get a legal contract so have no legal healthcare or benefits at all for me and DD.
Xp works but again has no contract so also off the spanish system.

In short, I need to move back to the uk to get a decent job, health care, child benefit, schooling and possibly initial help with housing etc.

Does anyone know if my Xp will legally be able to challenge this move? I am going to inform him and hopefully give him plenty of warning, but am worried about his reaction.

I also want him to remain in contact with his child and there is no spite or malice involved in my decision.

He's not overly violent but can be unpredictable, but mainly he is irresponsible and shows little interest in his child's welfare tho I know he loves her to bits if that makes sense?! He likes to have her for a few hours down the pub once a week if you get my drift.

Anyway, I'm just worrying about how to approach telling him of my plans and wonder if anyone (mum or dad) has been through this because I want to do it all correctly and fairly.

Thanks

Oh we're both brits, DD was born in spain but has a british passport and is a british citizen and we are not married tho he is on the birth cert.

he wont be able to force you to stay in spain.....just come home.

he's not 'overly violent'? what does that mean?? and having contact in the pub when he fancies it?

things need to change

I'm not sure what the jurisdiction would be for this. If it was the other way round - you both lived in the UK and you wanted to move to Spain - then he could apply to court for a Prohibited Steps Order to stop you emigrating. Whether he would get it or not would depend on the merits of the case. However, as you are currently both in Spain it would likely be Spanish law that applies and I've got no idea about that.

Try calling the Children's Legal Centre for advice as they have a fair amount of knowledge of the different legal systems around the world.

It might help if you come up with some concrete suggestions about how your ex will see your DD. For example, could you show that you plan to live near an airport that has cheap flights going to an airport near your ex in Spain? Are you prepared to take her there every four or six weeks? Will you be okay with your DD going to stay with him when you are not there? Will you let him stay in your house if he comes over for a visit?

Good advice, thank you very much. Lots and lots to organise and just got a bit muddled with horror stories of people being accused of 'kidnapping' (I know this does happen but it isn't what I'm doing!!).

Will get on to the Consulate (didn't think of that one!) and also Children's legal centre to clarify my position.

And perhaps write down some sort of agreement we both stick to regarding getting dd back over here for holidays so that access is maintained.

ps 'not overly violent' is that I've seen him punch other men and in the heat of a disagreement he has thrown stuff at me/grabbed me. But more like a chimp doing a display. Just to make me a bit wary of what he might do under pressure. Not that I'd think he would do anything if you know what I mean.

Also just found 'reunite' who give advice to parents whose children move abroad....

Be very very careful. He can't stop you from moving back to the UK but he can stop you from taking his child.

He would be able to cite reasonable access being a problem for him if you moved and he didn't.

A good friend of mine is currently in this situation. She is abroad, and intended to move back to the UK with her children in the New Year. She has now been told by the lawyers that until the divorce comes through and she is given (hopefully) full custody she has to stay where she is or he will accuse her of kidnapping. (which sadly, in effect, she would be doing)

Please get in touch with a lawyer in family cases as well as the British Consulate.

Good luck.

Since you are currently resident of Spain then I guess Spanish law applies rather than UK.

As others have said, consult a lawyer first before you warn him or do anything further.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

It's the section on Habitual Residence that you need to be careful with, in the event that your ex doesn't want you to move away from Spain. This is the clause that my friend has been caught by. She has now returned abroad (she went back to the UK for Christmas) and is awaiting her divorce with which she hopes to obtain full custody and "permission" from the courts to move back to the UK.

Thanks for the warnings, it sounds like it could be a potential minefield if I don't do it all properly.

Actually was hoping that as I am not a legal resident in Spain that it would work in my favour. we are called 'non-residents' unless we apply and get residency, although we live here permanently. But 'habitual residence' does make sense and I know it is all in the child's best interests generally but for me and my dd it is financially not possible to stay here.

Fingers crossed I'll get the info I need and that xp won't object as it is really my most sensible option.

You're right, I don't do drama and confrontations so I'm gonna get my act together before I inform him of my choice. I think it's fairer on us all, like you said it saves a lot of heartache.

It's taken me ages to make this decision as I knew I had to wait to calm down after the split to think about it rationally. So I'm not going to mess it up. Well, probably I will but then hey ho that's life!!!

Hi HanBanan,
yes, he will be able to legally challenge you!I live in Germany with three children and like you I wanted to return to the UK last year with the children. After arriving in England and talking to a lawyer I decided to return to Germany and wait the year until I'm divorced. Apparently if the children have lived with me and theres good reasons (jobs, finances etc) why I want to return to England then I should be granted custody after the year. Its still a worry but looking back, I'm glad I came back from England before it got worse. European countries plus others too have an agreement whereby if a parent takes a child out of its country of domain (in your case Spain) without both parents consent then the UK can force you to return for example. So go slowly, make sure your legally seperated and get legal aid for a lawyer or advice from an advice centre lawyer (in Germany the Catholic church provides such legal rights centres, perhaps in Spain too)- give yourself time before you make any big moves though. The last six monthes here have been hell and it really is worse when you have to go through it alone and abroad, but in being six monthes further I can honestly say it would have been much much worse if I'd have"kidnapped" my children. For example, I'd have not given my lousy husband time to realise he doesn't want to see the children often. At first he was saying he'd die without them and now he feels more than a few hours with his children in a week is too much so guess what, by the end of the year I'll decide if I want to go to England or not (yes, a part of me is starting to like living in Germany again) At last I'm starting to enjoy life again and I really wish you the best too. Keep positive when possible!

Megancleo I can see where you're coming from. But I am not going to change my mind. Spain is a different kettle of fish - us non-resident immigrants don't get any help so I am literary living on the breadline because xp has stopped paying his 'support'.

He might chuck me the odd 20 euros every few weeks.

I'm seriously up the creek without a paddle, but luckily I have my parents' financial help. And I am working, altho part time and no contract. Without parents and the luck to be in work I would be homeless. Seriously. The xp lives rent free with his parents and is busy pissing his life up against the wall! Like your x he is seeing his DD less and less. So I can't stay any longer.

Peppa I cannot afford legal help so am going to call Reunite. And frankly neither can the x. I am resorting to drawing up my own document of consent and am going to get him to sign it. I will include access arrangements but I'm going to put down how much cash I require from him because at the moment he is taking the mickey and frankly it's like trying to get blood out of a stone.

Thank you both for your great advice - it's obviously a lot more serious than I realised!!! I wish there was a 'You're a bastard dead beat dad convention' but then it's a man's world.

Right I called reunite and the legal situation is thus:

Legally a father has 'parental responsibility' if he is on the birth cert

So I legally cannot move countries without his consent if that means moving the child's 'habitual residence'

Any financial problems do not count as the convention is in place to stop people kidnapping children

So to leave with child I must get written consent from her father.

Otherwise he can get legal aid and through the British courts get my child 'removed' from the UK and brought back to spain with or without me, and I could have my travel docs taken off me to prevent me from moving again.

Lets hope I can get his consent otherwise we are stuck in a country where he gets away with paying little / no maintenance, I have no medical cover for me or daughter, no benefits if I am not working etc etc etc.

Whilst I agree absolutely that your ex is a knob and your position financially is terrible, I must say I do support the law here - it is not right that one parent can simply 'inform' the other that they've decided to take a child to another country. I really hope you can get your ex to agree. Is there such a thing as the CSA (or equivalent) in Spain?

Hi Hanbanan, NOW you understand why I came back to Germany don't ya? I agree with Tanga that generally its a good thing that both parents must agree for a child to be taken out of its domicile but if you go into various Brit womens magazine chatrooms you will see theres an awful lot of us women who for example, followed hubbys work abroad and on seperation are stuck penniless in a foreign country! Still, I was at the lawyer today and it really seems if you stick it out for the year needed for a divorce then if you plead "need to go back to UK for a livlihood etc "that custody will be granted and you can legally leave the country with children. Of course it would be SUPER if parents could come to agreements long before this but in many of these cases we are not speaking about responsible, grown-up fathers. Mine has just told me (after three children) that he now thinks he didn't want children....six monthes more to go! My son in particular wants to stay in Germany and of course if I could get decent work tomorrow perhapsy it would be best all-round but I am surviving on freelance teaching and with 3 children, expensive rent and irregular maintenance thats no perspective! Ok modern men have to be given these legal rights whether they are mature enough for them or not but hey, us women have got to toughen up a bit and fight for our rights to a decent life!

You're damn right megancleo! It's a nightmare but I am hoping with everything crossed it will be less if the x is good about it. I might be jumping the gun but I started this thread because I knew it wasn't going to be easy and that is so true.

And Tango, I totally agree that it's not right to just take a child against another parents' wishes...but on the other hand it's not right that as me and my daughter (and the x) are British and he has become such a slack ass dad that me and DD should suffer and live in virtual poverty.

I lie awake at night worrying about our future here.

I'm sure the law was set up for cases where a not-so-nice parent steals a child and takes em abroad where the other parent is unaware of their whereabouts and to me that is kidnap. But to want to go back to your home country - and DD is British not Spanish by law - for a better life when the other parent has given up 'parental responsibility' in everything but the law is a different matter.

The CSA has no jurisdiction in Spain. The Spanish equivalent won't get anywhere because all his work is cash in hand and therefore off record. None of us are able to get 'dole', DD is not entitled to child benefit like all kids in the UK are - and Spanish kids might I add. We don't even have an entitlement to national health. What if one of us got ill? What if I didn't have my parents to help house me? What if I lose my job?

Got to just get on with it best I can nd my hats off to people like megancleo who manage to get on - time is all it takes, but that's easier said than done!!

Y'know Hanbanan if I was you I'd PROBABLY go and get a spanish lawyer to write up an agreement that you can't afford to stay, health benefits etc and risk it..flee to England. He "loves her to bits" but whether he could be bothered to fight to bring her back to Spain (could he afford lawyer? or the time to do paperwork away from pub..Only you can weigh it up but hell, you don't even have health care?! He only would have a few weeks to put in the claim to force you back and perhaps a written agreement done before you leave Spain would stall it a bit.Its hard to decide. My situation is somewhat different in that yes, at least I have healthcare(if not enough to pay rent etc each month..) and my ex who has German nationality happens to come from the Middle East originally. A little fact that means if I upset him then revenge could have a very high price..at first I was always worried he'd take a child but now he thinks I'm staying here (penniless) its stabilised and I'm thankful for every day he has less interest in his children because it widens my future horizons. Also its different because I've now been in Germany half my life so I#m a foreigner everywhere! your ex is from England not Spain so he can go back too...only you can decide if you will risk it, at least you haven't yet ot the complications of schooling etc. Look after yourself.

I had to do this. From UK to Ireland though. The children's father was abusive and aggressive and because he was also financially abusive I had no choice but to return home to my home country. he did threaten to have me charge with abducting them at one point, but luckily a good solicitor wrote a letter which made him drop it.

WHAT I would advise you to do is to go through legal channels. Make an appointment with a solicitor for an application to remove the children from their habitual domicile. Set out your case. You have a very good case I think! That you need the support of family, you need their financial assistance, you need baby sitting...the NHS provides free care. Their father himself may well return to the UK one day.

At one point I was up to my eyes in the Hague Convention. My solicitor told me that after a few years of judges just "applying the hague convention" without even looking at the case (ie, ordering the children back to their country of original domicile) now luckily, judges are starting to differentiate between a mother returning with her children to her home country for much-needed support and a woman jetting off to start a new life in say australia and taking her children with her.

The fact that your child's maternal and paternal grandparents are in the UK will be in your favour and you should put that in your application to leave.

this may sound very officious but if you do it right to start with then you won't live with the fear of a court case for two years like I did! Luckily my children's dad went out and bought a new car and he didn't realise soon enough that he could have ordered the children back to the UK.

Good luck. It's a horrible situation to be in.

HanBanan, I am re-reading here and I completely identify with so much of what you're going through right now. I was trapped between a rock and hard place in the UK, but my x wouldn't help me. He wanted, demanded that every sacrifice of parenthood be my sacrifice!!

Before I left I asked for help to split up! He told me 'no f**ing way. I went down to the local council and asked about a council house but because I was 'housed' at that point, there was no chance. I had nobody to support me, emotionally or financially and he undermined me every day. We weren't married either and we lived in a nice house in a nice area and he had a lovely car. I had no rights to anything and he would give out to me for not keeping 'his' house clean. He can't SEE that he left me with no choice but to leave! He was so angry when I left. He would have preferred that the children were around the corner being brought up in poverty, than back in Ireland with extended family network to make sure that they had a good quality of life and education etc. After the threat to take me to court for abducting the children and claiming to want residency, he now visits them about four times a year. He spends his salary on new cars and ski trips and I think, nwo that the dust has settled, he is happy that he doesn't have to spend money on his childen.

Hi
I am currently living in Spain. I have ust left my ex who is an alcoholic, he wasnt violent but it was not looking good for our future and i knew it was best for the kids if we split. I want to move back to UK as I have no money, cant work as my son is so small, havent got any friends or family here. At home i have a good job offer i can support my kids and pay the mortgage in spain so that i have a house to return to for visits. I have promised to return regularly for visits but as of yet my ex wont sign the papers. We cant have any contact so i cant reason with him. The system is incredibly unfair. Whilst my partner cant come near me, neither has anyone esle! I have no money, barely any food, i live in the mountains and my car has broken down, i am in a right mess. I cant get any benefits because i have a little job but i cant get there without my car. My ex has passed me 150 euros since we split, i am behind on the mortgage etcc.. I just dont see why no one can see logic. At home my family will be well looked after, i can work and pay everything even the visits.
It looks like legally i might have to be here another 6 months , how am i going to manage?