some sane advice needed please.....

[feelingit]

I'm in a horrible situation that I know some of you have been in. In short H left in Oct after I confronted him about an OW. I have no idea if I have the whole truth but according to him there was a girl from work who he had got too close to but it was more the problems with us that made him want to leave. It transpired that after he left he got together with her properly with her for a few weeks before Christmas but ended it as he realised it was the wrong thing to be doing and wanted us to make a go of it so ended it (but placed more emphasis on the kids - DD is 2.5 years old and I am due to give birth to DS2 in June - I found out after he left). I went mental at him when I found out (in a counselling session) and then he really seemed gutted that I may no longer want to carry on with counselling and make it work due to him sleeping with her.

I softened a bit when I saw signs of him wanting to make it work (wrongly) and started being more honest - saying I did too and since then he seems to have gone back the other way. Still in counselling but TBH I am not sure if he's just there to ease his conscience - he swears blind he is not with her but he needs to listen to his feelings and is not sure about his for me. I am now left in the situation where I am trying to 'detach', move on - imagine life with our 1 soon to be 2 children without him and be 'breezy' - not put pressure on him and get on...... but it's really hard pouring your heart out once a week at counselling where the objective is complete honesty.

I don't think he has much respect for me as I just seemed to accept he had slept with her (albeit after he left) without making him sweat or wait. I know that maybe the best thing to do would be to tell him I don't want to continue with counselling and can't live in limbo but TBH I can only do that if I am ready to walk away from our marriage and I'm not there yet...plus I think there is a chance he is waiting for me to do that so he can say 'Well we both tried but she decided that she didn't want to anymore' as he already feels so guilty But how do I get that respect back whilst I am in this situation and make him do some of the running/fighting.. or is that not possible ?!

He asked to come to the scan with me next week (did not come to the first) so maybe I have just hoping that something inside him will crack when he sees it then as he loves our DD so much and the thought of not being a proper father to either of them is what would kill him the most. (or am I just kidding myself ?)

What is it you want? Do you want to make it work or not?

Its not obvious to me which it is you want. Perhaps you don't know yourself. Don't think anyone would blame you but unless you know, how can anyone else help?

Yes I do want to make it work but not sure how much longer I can continue with the limbo....

I think maybe you need to set a time limit on his fannying around ie after a certain point (maybe a month) he either commits to staying with you or he leaves. Because what you don't want is to be in a position where he can constantly hold the threat of leaving over you (any time he doesn't like his dinner or you don't pick up his socks quick enough, or don't feel in the mood for sex he can start going ooh I'm not sure I want to stay with you). Remember that you have a choice about whether or not the relationship continues, as well.

I think I remember posting on a thread you did in relationships, unless there is someone else in exactly this situation! I'm sorry you're no further on with it.

Exactly as solid says, my ex started to effectively "manage me out" of the marriage. He regularly hinted he was unhappy and did his best to make me feel that if I put a toe out of line he'd leave, the uncertainty made me feel ill with stress.

Eventually I just reached breaking point with it all, (after he'd sneered at me that I didn't make him happy) snapped and told him to go, he did and now we're in the midst of divorce.

I'm so much better off out of that, it turns out that life as a LP is no different from when he lived with us- in fact in many ways it's much easier not to have to run around after another overgrown child.

Thanks for your posts. yes I think I need to toughen up. I am such a 'nice' person (err or is that doormat ?) - which he knows and I need to steel myself and get some b*llocks for once. he does not respond well to ultimatums but equally you are right.. I can't sit around wondering for ever.

I need to start thinking about the baby and what the future looks like. I think he has been running and choosing to turn a blind eye to the fact that I am pregnant so far as I am not really showing and I only see him twice a week when he only has eyes for our DD.

I think if I set a time limit now he will walk away - I am going to wait until after the scan and 2 more MG sessions and then set a limit. you are right I need to get myself into the mindset that I do have a choice. I have spent the last few months just hoping and praying that he'll come to his senses and look where that has got me.

I can relate to the overgrown child thing I think it's just the prospect of a new baby in June and what my vision of a 'perfect family unit' looked like that makes me question throwing the towel in just yet.. but that's actually not the best reason for wanting things to work is it ?

That's exactly what stopped me too feelingit, it's a really hard thing to let go of it, and I think many of us put up with way too much to try and salvage our family dream.

I'm also regularly described as being too nice, unfortunately it's landed me in a right old mess with H. You really need to look after yourself and your dc's now.

Yes you are right. Can I ask chippy.... How long did you put up with H's 'uncertainty' and did you ever get the impression he was into it to save things or was it just lipservice ? Did he quite calmly walk away ? oh and one last question... what would you have done differently if anything ?!

You can't keep a person who doesn't want to be in a relationship with you, and trying to keep someone is a terrible waste of effort and very bad for your self-esteem and mental health. Men like this will happily take as much advantage as they can - let you run around after them, feeding and servicing them while they do whatever they feel like doing and see how much you will put up with. Don't put yourself through it.

SGB -Sadly you describe me to a tee but I think I am shifting.....

Maybe there have already been threads like this on here but I am seriously wondering.....
Do men (ok people ) undergo a huge change to end up like this when it comes to situations like this ? H used to be the most tender, caring, gentle wonderful H is the world and I could never ever have predicted this.. Or have they always been like this and its takes the getting married/having families or them to show their true colours ? I mean WTF has happened -he is a completely different person to the man I fell in love with. (sadly i think I am still in love with the one I married and he has long since taken leave)

IN some cases, the man comes across as 'lovely' because he's getting all his needs met by you - and then when you have a baby and put the baby first, so the man suddenly isn't getting his every whim gratified, the man starts acting up, because he thinks he's the most important person in the world and resents having to take second place to the baby.

Again, exactly as solid says. H was lovely to me when we first met, but with hindsight, that's because he was able to do what he wanted, when he wanted and I went with the flow because we were young, free and had good jobs which gave us financial freedom to do nice things - spur of the moment holidays and so on.

As soon as dc's came along, he found life at home mundane and went looking for adventure elsewhere. He engineered a situation where I was at home and he worked away, living the life of riley.

feelingit, I put up with it for more or less exactly a year. That was quite enough, it was totally emotionally torturous and the relief of making a decision was immense. He did calmly walk away, no tears or emotion showed for the end of our marriage. I absolutely feel he was paying lip service, he didn't want to look like the sort of person who'd leave a wife with 2 tiny dc's and maintained a facade for a while.

I'm so sorry you're going through this, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, it's awful. You will be so much better off once the decision is made though, I wish I'd taken control much earlier but one of the dc's had a health scare which kept me clinging to H far longer than I would have in any other circumstances.

thanks both of you. I also think it's the arrival of DD that changed him... it's just really difficult to pinpoint this as he seems to be rewriting our entire history to suggest he was always unhappy -Its hard to tell him he wasn't and it's when OW turned up as he is so adamant that so many things were wrong between us.

Is it quite common for the H to worship the ground DD walks on and be a great 'fun' Dad but despise any of the responsibility (yes and mundanity)of life that goes with it as it seems that this is what has happened? I wish he could see what a bl**dy cliche he was but he won't listen to me as its just seen as pressure. I feel I am fighting a losing battle and chippy yes I have a feeling my situation will be mirroring yours sometime soon (is it really so much better once you have made that decision ? tell me more good things!!). If I am holding out hope that me having a DS will sway him (he had a crap relationship with his Dad and this has had a huge impact on him ) and make him see sense then then I am mistaken.....

I don't think it's common, but it's what H did. He wants the fun of dc's without the responsibility, which is exactly what he's now got. The real test will be when OW and he have dc's of their own (bet it will happen!) and then he's back to square one..

It is better, yes. The uncertainty is gone. There are lots of other things to worry about, I won't pretend it's easy, but I don't think you sound to have control of things anyway, so the sooner you can work with it the better. I hoped H would have a lightbulb moment but he got worse and worse. The best way you can get your H to realise what he's losing is by simply getting on with life without him. Some day you'll meet someone new, is your H happy to let them be a father figure to his dc's if he's not prepared to be?

Chippy - A few of his friends have pointed this out but it has either fallen on deaf ears or (more likely) he is unable to think far enough ahead to what 'might' happen until it actually happens. I have done a lot since he left - I am seeing a counselor by myself and working on dysfunctional childhood stuff, I have joined a singing group, I have got stuff done around the house that we had procrastinated about forever (maybe to prove a point) plus all the usual new haircut ,new clothes, getting him to babysit once a week, organising a spa weekend away with friends... I don't call him pleading or begging, or really ever atall, I go out when he comes round to see DD (even if I don't have a lot planned) in fact I am very proud of how much I am getting on with it but he still seems to think that I am 'dependant' on him - whereas I could not be depending on him any less than I am !

I am wondering if his comments are actually more to do with him not being able to handle having ANY sort of responsibility or 'being needed' at all in his life...Anyway I think that could form the basis for teh next counselling session. I have no idea to what extent OW is on teh scene.. if she is, or if she is just in his head. He denies it but am not so sure....

Feelingit: He wants to convince you that you are still 'dependent' on him because he thinks he is the most important thing in the world. You're supposed to cling to his trouser legs, weeping, every time he says he might leave. Note: He doesn't actually want to support you in any way, or do anything for your benefit, it;s just that his ego can't handle the fact that you can manage perfectly well without him, hence his constnat dithering about, it's his way of trying to make sure that your attention is focussed on him and on making him stay rather than onyourself and the DC.

SGB: Do you think that's what it is...? so what happens if I prove I don't 'need' him anymore.. Does he then want to come back ?

He left in October... but I guess what you say is true in that case of 'every time he says he can't see this working /or us getting back togther.

When I was being very very strong and ballsy a few weeks ago he said the thought of how strong I am and how I am moving on without him scares the life out of him... then I weakened a bit and He actually said the other night that he is really 'pleased/proud (what ?) that I have gone into therapy as I need to grow as a person - and that it is only by me growing as a person that we will ever be able to have any sort of relationship, and also (this is the best bit)that What would
'impress' him (yes I know) is me doing my own thing and becoming less dependant on him. OMG -

He says that to his wife that he walked out on who has coped singlyhandedly with everything whilst pregnant since he left... and what has he done ? walked out on his wife and family, got a 1 bedroom flat, relieved himself of all responsibility and shagged a girl from work. hmmmmm

Feelingit: Look, this man is a shit. He;'s an ego on astick who doesn't care about your feelings at all - he just wants you running around after him. Basically he would like to have you pining away for him so he's got somewhere to go for home cooking, clean pants and pampering while he gets to shag around and do what he wants.

Feelingit I have to agree with solidgold...

And I have to say it sounds like you are doing very well without him around.

How he can put you under this amount of stress whilst you are pregnant is beyond me and actually shows a great lack of respect for you and your children.

He is putting all the pressure on you to make the decision to 'end it' knowing that infact he has got you on standby if he wants to come back or his OW gets fed up with him.

And so perhaps you should lay down the law and tell him tho you are not happy with the situation you are aleady leading a single parent life.

Just a thought, if you are still going to joint counselling how come the counsellor hasn't picked up on the fact that this guy is keeping you hanging on a string whilst you are pregnant and taking on full responsibility of your family? Aren't they supposed to help? Sounds like they're allowing him to prolong his manipulation of you and your feelings.

Remember you are much more important than him to your children. You are pregnant. You are the one bringing them up. Well done you, because all us lone parenters know how heartbreakingly hard that is.

The counsellor didn't pick up on that in my situation either. I really wanted her to get to the bottom of it all, and looking back OW was clearly on the scene - ours was such a cliched situation. I almost feel like asking for my money back, it was such a waste of time!

how are you OP? I honestly think you are well rid. I realised that if my H couldn't support me when I was at my most vulnerable (one of the dc's had a healthscare which was awful) then I really didn't need him. And I don't - I'm typing this with the house clean and tidy, the dc's happy and settled in bed, washing done, kitchen tidied up, glass of wine poured etc. I've got lovely plans for this weekend with friends, and for the next two.

You can and will do this, just focus on this baby and moving on with your life.

Thanks for your post chippy. I went out with work tonight and he has just left. Not much of a conversation but it still gets me every time. I am in pieces every time I see him (actually not when I am with him but fall apart once he leaves - not because I want him to stay - just at the whole f*cked up situation). I want to shake him and get the truth out of him about OW. Did you know deep down she was on the scene and keep confronting him with denials or were you not really aware ? I actually think the counselor does know (or thinks she might be on the scene) but is giving him the space and time to sort his head out. Maybe I should ask H if he thinks there is any point in carrying on after this week's session.... (or if like your H would he still say yes to look good ?!) I so so want to get to the stage where I am happy with my situation and every day is not filled with this pain and nightmare.I just need to get strong enough to get there (and don't want to be the one to walk away) . I could write a book on what I 'should' be doing to look after myself and focus on me but I am really struggling at the mo. every day seems to get more painful not less - maybe I am finally starting to accept this is it.

FeelingIt: Look, love, it doesn't make you a bad person to say @enough is enough' to someone who is just walking all over you. Counselling, my arse! It's not helpful at all for you to sit there and listen to him whining on with his head up his bum week after week while the counsellor goes, mm and how do you feel about that? You have put up with way more than enough of this man's selfishness and self-indulgence, and if you tell him to stop and piss off you will probably feel so much better. And if anyone says you shoud have worked on your marriage, point out that he wasn't actually working on the marriage at all and therefore you'd had enough.

yep I think I am going to do that. I always told myself end of feb so I am going to stick it til then and do just that if I see no sign of anything improving. You are right - its sometimes difficult to see what a complete arse he really is whilst I am so emotionally in over my head but yours and other comments are far more objective. I am too nice. I know I need to toughen up.... any tips? have always been the good/nice one - never considered myself to be a doormat - just reasonable but this situation is making me see that I am in this case and he will continue with this unless I put a stop to it. I can really let rip once I have nothing to lose anymore.

H swore blind he'd ended things with OW, and never admitted anything I couldn't prove (still hasn't) No amount of questioning or begging for answers made a difference at that stage.

The absolute best advice I can give you is to bring it to a head asap. If counselling isn't helping, pull out. You will not change anything by being nice in this situation - a short sharp shock is what he needs.

You can't make him want to be with you, agonising though it is, if he won't commit to you now, you need to move on. I do really understand how hard this is, the sooner you confront this now, the sooner you'll be through it.