Advice needed re: ex and DD .. sorry, long!

[Arianrhod]

Hi all - I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, so forgive me if it's wrong, but I have a really difficult
situation with my almost-3-year-old daughter (she's 3 in two days time)
that I am completely at my wits' end to know how to handle, and I
wondered if you might have some advice for me before I make some
seroiusly big mistakes!

It's to do with her father, from whom I am divorced and was actually
separated from before I even got pregnant with my daughter (here's a tip

• NEVER allow yourself to be persuaded to go on holiday with an ex ...

!!). A bit of history to explain my problem first, if you'll bear with me! My ex was furious when he discovered I was pregnant and wanted nothing to do with the pregnancy, maintaining all along that he didn't want another child (he had two from a previous marriage, who both lived with him at the time, and who I helped to raise from very young for several years). I was perfectly ok with this, and told him I accepted full responsibility for my child, I didn't want anything from him. He repeated again when she was born (the day she was born actually!) that he didn't want another child - again, I was ok with this. My daughter and I stayed with him for the first three months of her life while I learned how to look after a baby - with virtually no help from him at all, he didn't want to do anything. We then went back to our own house, and that was that. In an attempt to have my daughter at least have some bond with her father I used to take her round to his house for both days of every weekend (I was there with her, obviously), and a couple of days during the week I would pop over there with her after work. I stopped that part of it at the beginning of 2009, when she turned 2, as it was proving just too tiring for her as it was late in the afternoon (after 5:15pm) and impacted on her bedtime, so at that point her father started occasionally coming to our house after work a couple of times in the week (I still maintained the visits of both of us to his place at the weekend). Gradually he formed some sort of bond with my daughter, although still wasn't really that interested in her - he would play with her occasionally, but on the whole, left everything to me, and didn't really pay her much attention. (I have to say, he wasn't great with his own two children either!).

Then I met my current partner Andy, at the end of February 2009, and he
hit it off with my daughter immediately. He loves children and is
really terrific with her. My ex, predictably, was furious and insisted
initially that I had betrayed him (we had been separated for 3.5 years
at this point but had not then divorced, I never bothered as I couldn't
afford it), that I shouldn't bring another man into "his" daughter's
life so young, and suddenly changed entirely the way he behaved to my
daughter. Although he still didn't, and doesn't, give her anywhere near
100% of his attention when he's around her (several times I have had to
tell him to watch her when she's about to do something that would hurt
her right beside him as he hadn't noticed, or I've had to tell him quite
forcibly that she's trying to get his attention, etc), suddenly now he
started telling her - and anyone who would listen - that she is "Daddy's
little angel" and "Daddy's little princess" and every time he sees her
now he tells her he loves her (he never told his own two children this
unless he was telling them off and then it was "I love you but ... ").
I obviously stopped taking her to his house at weekends, to which he was
angry, and insisted that he see "his" daughter one day a week at the
weekend on his own or he would take me to court and threatened me that
"it will go badly for you if I do that". I reluctantly agreed, but
built it up over a period of three weekeneds as she'd never been alone
for more than an hour with him before, so that one weekend day she was
with him alone for a couple of hours, then the following weekend a whole
morning or afternoon, then the following weekend the whole day. Largely
that's gone ok, except for two occasions (one just this last week) where
he's contacted me during the day he's with her furious because she said
she didn't want to be with him, she wanted to come home to myself and my
partner (we all moved in together at the beginning of October).

Sorry for the long-winded history bit, but it's leading to my problem
now, which is this. My ex has been saying things to my daughter when he
has her alone, along the lines of her home is with him, that he's always
been there for her right from when she was born, that he loves her and
misses her all the time, that he wants her to sleep at his house (he's
been pressing for this but I've said she's much too young to be away
from me overnight), and that's just what I know about - I'm sure there's
much more. My daughter loves my partner to bits and follows him around,
except when she's come back from being with her dad and then she's quite
cold to my partner for a while. Plus of course she's at the age where
we're having to tell her off for things - the past few weeks she's
started hitting myself and my partner, and obviously we have to tell her
off when she does that, whereas of course Daddy doesn't tell her off for
anything and maintains she's his perfect angel (to her, in front of me)
whenever she's with him. It's resulted in her thinking her Daddy is
absolutely perfect and she loves him, she talks about him when she's not
with him asking if her Daddy is taking her out today, when will she see
her Daddy again, that Daddy's told her she can stay at his house when I
say she's old enough, etc etc. She's now started also saying she
doesn't want my partner and is pushing him away where she would have
wanted cuddles from him.

I just don't know how to react to this to her - obviously I don't want
to hurt her, but I am so very angry that my ex is turning her away from
my partner and that she thinks her Daddy is just perfect when in fact
he's really only shown any interest in her since my partner came on the
scene. He's wildly jealous of my partner, even though my partner has
done everything in his power to be friendly to my ex, even inviting him
to come and see my daughter in our house (which was my partner's house)
on Christmas Day.

I really and truly don't know how to respond to her when she talks about
how much she loves her Daddy, and all the things he's telling her -
which she's believing, of course, even though I know them to be false.
There's no way my ex is reasonable enough for me to talk to him to try
to stop what he's saying to her, but how can I deal with the situation
from her point of view, do you have any advice please? I so much don't
want to hurt her, even though a big part of me desperately wants her to
know her "Daddy" isn't the man he's pretending to be to her - obviously
I know I can't tell her that!

Any advice at all would be really and truly gratefully received, I'm at
my wits' end!

thanks ...

Well to be blunt (and thus not very helpful) your dd now has a very close relationship with her dad - this is a good thing isn't it? Who cares what brought it about - your dd is happy which is the main thing.

She talks abotu how much she loves her daddy - sorry but your response has to be 'That's lovely - and he loves you very much too'.

Hard for your partner I realise but he has to just hang on in there, obviously making a huge effort to spend time with her. Eventually I'm sure she'll want him as much as she curretly wan;ts her daddy.

So if I am reading this right, your problem is that your daughter is saying that she loves her dad.

Dad is saying he wants overnight access and that he loves his daughter, something he's told her but not his other kids.

Your ex has been a bit of a tosser but it does look like the bond you tried to create at the beginning has worked. That in my book is a good thing!!! He may be a crap partner and even a bit of a crap dad but he is her dad.

I don't see how you have to respond in any way to her when she says how much she loves her daddy. Surely that's the most natural thing in the world?

Sounds to me like you are trying to replace your ex with your partner since the latter lives up to your ideals whereas the former does not.

Be careful though since 10 months is not a long time relationship wise. Plenty have broken up after that and chances are your ex will be in your DD's life for a lot longer.

your ex is your dd's dad and i agree when she says she loves him you should be happy an tell her that he loves her too.
Also i personally don't think nearly 3 is too young to be away from you at all.
your ex and your dd will get more quality time.

You got what you worked so hard to establish - a loving bond between father and daughter.

She will figure out dad's not perfect as she gets older. And she will be fine with your boyfriend and treat him as your boyfriend/friend as time goes on.

It comes across slightly in your post (and maybe you don't mean it to be) that you would rather she preferred your boyfriend to her dad?

It's also time to let her start staying overnight with her dad. And you will get some quality time with your boyfriend.

I think the answer here is to walk the high road - if there's anything to 'see through' with regards to her dad she will see it in her own time.

I hear what you're all saying, and if my ex had BEEN a Dad to her in any respect other than as a result of a fit of jealousy now that another, in all ways better-acting father to her, is on the scene, then I would agree. But he hasn't been, he didn't ever want her, she's never lived with him as father and daughter, I simply don't feel he has the right to pick and choose when he wants a daughter! I just don't consider it good enough that he wants her now that someone else is around as a male role model to her. Why does them sharing a string of DNA automatically give my ex rights over my daughter? It's not that I want my DD to 'prefer' my partner over my ex, and this isn't about how my partner feels truthfully - he's a sensible grown-up man and can handle my daughter being a 3 year old! - I just don't like the fact that my ex has only started showing an interest in her because someone else is around; as far as I can tell my ex is using my daughter to make him feel good (he has said as much in the past, that he wants her around because she makes him feel good) and has no genuine interest in what SHE needs, it's all about what he wants at the time.

When she says or does something he doesn't like he immediately turns cold to her, hard and uncaring. How am I supposed to protect her from that?

I don't want to get into the discussion of whether I should or should not be letting her stay the night at my ex's, since as she's never slept anywhere away from me and is still needing me in the night it would be a cruelty to her so young. I've been legally advised that the courts in our area do see her as much too young at her age - only because she's not used to sleeping at his house or with him there in the night. I was told categorically that if my ex pushes for this in court he WILL lose it, that the courts are currently ruling (in our area, I hasten to add) in situations exactly like ours that she should be a minimum of 6 years old before she is forced to sleep away from me. That ties in with what her school have said, that they only start encouraging independence in young girls from their mothers around the age of 6. I don't want to be flamed on this one, I just came here asking how I should respond to her in sensible manner, a way that doesn't hurt her. I KNOW I cannot say what I know about her Dad (and bear in mind I know how he treats children - his own two for a start - and how he treats other people; he has no conception of how to put someone else's needs before his own). I know this, but I am having a hard time when I can see that my ex has no real, genuine interest in my daughter but rather has a knee-jerk reaction that someone else is "stealing" HIS property.

Sounds to me like everyone is saying I have to grit my teeth and put up with what I see happening plainly in front of me. I'll do that if I have to - but how do I deal with the fact that my ex is apparently lying to my daughter and trying to turn her against my partner and myself in favour of him?

Please don't flame me on this one - I am genuinely trying to do the right thing for my daughter, and that is NOT to increase her access to someone who is using her for his own ends!!!

The right thing to do for your daughter is to support contact with her father.

Your diatribe against overnight contact is just a shield for hiding the fact you don't want it. What can you do for your daughter overnight that your ex cannot?

Thing is, while you say he is cold, hard & uncaring. That's your opinion and I doubt your ex would agree. If he were here posting he would probably paint you as overbearing, controlling and trying to sabotage contact with his daughter. The truth is usually somewhere in between.

You say your ex is only establishing a relationship with DD since he became jealous. Even if is true, it matters less what stimulated it, the fact is that he's making an effort. That should be encouraged.

Maybe in time your first fears could be confirmed and ex loses interest and drops contact leading to DD being disappointed. But you cannot protect her from everything. As parent your primary role is to prepare her for the world, not wrap her in cotton wool. If her dad is a muppet, she must learn it for herself and make her own mind up, no matter how hard that lesson is.

She is old enough to know who daddy is. Nearly all children have two parents - biological parents and as long as both parents are wanting contact with the child this should be encouraged. My dss loves his mum and his dad and we will never hear a bad word said about his mum - she is his mum and deserves to be on the pedestal he has her on. At now 10yo he is clued up and realises who says things and means them etc.
You should put all your feelings aside with regards to your ex (unless he is a physical or mental danger) and encourage contact. She will be able to tell you herself in a couple of years anyhow.
Also if you went through court etc to establish contact your ex would most probably get regular contact including an overnight stay.

Fair point about my daughter finding out for herself, I would just rather she didn't experience the hurt that my ex's other 2 children have gone through.

Ok, I hear what you're saying, thanks - however I would say that you're completely wrong about my "diatribe" against overnight contact - I would actually welcome it, it would be lovely to get a decent night's sleep for once!! I only tried to explain (ok, I know at length!) because I'm sick of people telling me that I'm wrong not letting my daughter stay at my ex's overnight yet. I am absolutely happy for her to do so - when I know she can cope with it. Even the solicitor I saw said every child is different, and I know my daughter best, that even if the court rules she doesn't stay at my ex's until she's at least 6, that if I felt she was ready earlier then that's obviously ok. Right now I know full well she would be extremely distressed if I wasn't there overnight. Now, that is. When she's older, it will obviously be different, she'll be quite happy to be away from me, and I'll welcome it - when the time is right. And what can I do for her that my ex couldn't, overnight? Well, hear her for one - my ex never heard when his own kids cried at night, that was always left to me to deal with. And care for her when she has nightmares - something else he could never do for his own kids, he had no clue and dismissed their night-time fears as "stupid".

Anyway, I hear what you're saying niceguy2, and I do appreciate the response.

And totally agree with niceguy in that at nearly 3 your ex wll be able to everythng you can for an overnight stay. My db has his dc overnight since he split with their mum.

sometimes i think a dad/dh/dp doesn't hear the dc as dm is there to do it.
i agree that all children are different but my 2yo had to be away from me when i had ds2 and be it he went to his gp's he loved it and has been several times since - we didn't have any other choice. I have learnt dc are a lot more adaptable than I thought.

All children are indeed different but in my opinion, much of that is determined by how they are brought up.

Personally I would not like the idea that any child of mine could not manage for a night away from me. In your case the other person is not a stranger or a distant relative but their own father. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a night off from your child. Its good for you and i would argue good for them too.

My GF's son is a month younger than your daughter and we sometimes leave him with his aunt overnight. Last year we even let him stay for a week so we could go on holiday together. Despite missing his mum the first couple of days, he's not turned into a toddler from hell or reverted to baby form. In fact he's still a happy, bright, independent and confident boy.

As for the hurt, yes I agree i wish I could take it all away from my DD too. She is a teenager now and is learning the truth about her mum and isn't liking what she sees. It kills me inside that I cannot protect her. The father in me wants to call the ex up and stop contact but every fortnight I deliver them both dutifully. I do this because I know that to step in and wrap her in cotton wool only makes it worse in the long run. She knows I will support her 100% whatever she decides but that also the decision at her age now is hers and hers alone.

Sorry, but I think everyone is missing the point here. The OP isn't against the dad spending time with his DD but the manipulation that she feels is going on. The fact that he is acting the good dad rather than being it.

I don't know how you counter it other than time. Even young children do start to recognise behaviour for what it is, albeit at a different level to adults. Nearly everyone has the experience of a very strict teacher at school versus the nice one who couldn't actually control the class. While we had fun with the second one that started to wear thin pretty quickly.

Your DD may also be acting from a position of being grateful for the attention she's getting now - if someone who has been emotionally distant is suddenly present that must feel fantastic. Especially as she appears to be being singled out for extra special attention as compared with her half-siblings.

I think all you can do is hold firm and be your consistent selves. Your DD will get that at some level as most children much prefer firm but fair. Given her dad's previous behaviour, it does sound as if your greatest problem may be how you support DD when he reverts to type.

To be perfectly honest your ex sounds like he could be emotionaly abusive. What rung alarm bells to me is what you said about exH rejecting dd when she says something he doesn't like.

Just be careful hun this is not an easy situation to deal with at all.

tricky one tbh.
by all means promote a healthy relationship between them regardless of how it came about... but this manipulation you talk about i do not like. youre going to have to actually go and tell a grown man that you do not toy with childrens emotions. that needs stopping asap