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Original poster

CAFCASS

45 replies

ladyclare · 06/07/2009 21:31

Parents who leave domestic abusive relationships to protect their children are being forced by CAFCASS & family law courts to hand over their children for contact with the very people they are trying to protect them from, therfor placing them at risk. They are putting the rights of the abusive parents before the needs and rights of the child that needs protecting, often without even doing the relvent checks on the abusive parent. Why is this being allowed to happen? It must be stopped now, before yet another child becomes another sad statistic! Please help us parents who had the courage to leave an abusive relationship, protect our vulnarable children. An abusive parent is NOT better than no parent!
www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=79880221892
petitions.number10.go v.uk/legalisedabuse/
protectchildren.labourspace.com/view_campaign?CampaignId=176

OP posts:
Original poster
ladyclare · 06/07/2009 21:33

www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=79880221892

v.uk/legalisedabuse/

protectchildren.labourspace.com/view_campaign?CampaignId=176

OP posts:
lostdad · 07/07/2009 08:05

Stats?

Ryn · 07/07/2009 12:10

Well done for this!

sunshine13 · 07/07/2009 15:54

i agree with Lostdad.. where are the stats? I know a case where Mum has lied( or exagerated) claims about domestic abuse to stop dad from seeing child, so Im glad that CAFCASS are starting to see through some of these so-called women.

Dads SHOULD be invoved in their kids lives.

Spero · 07/07/2009 15:57

O ffs.

First - has there been a fact finding hearing?
Has the court determined that there has been violence??
Or has the alleged perpetrator been convicted in a criminal court?

If there has been violence which has been found to have occured in civil or criminal proceedings there is no way that a court would order direct contact without very serious consideration of how this would be safe for child and other parent, and what violent parent needs to do to change.

The court takes this very seriously.

You have to hear and understand both sides of the story before you can jump to conclusions like this.

MsUndastood · 07/07/2009 16:02

My XP was violent and abusive, SS has said that I don't have to let him have contact.

But then XP has a criminal record to back this all up, maybe that is the difference?

GypsyMoth · 07/07/2009 16:04

My ex tried to kill me. We have 4 children together. I left, was in a Hostel for a year with kids.

You get the chance in court to say what needs saying
An abusive ex might just be abusive to partner, not the kids
I asked for a forensic psychiatric asessment, this showed his problem is with women
And cafcass RECOMEND to courts, JUDGE has final ruling

I won't be joining your facebook protest, each case is individual and cafcass do their best. It's the childrens act they are implementing, which is the childs right to a relationship with both parents, not the parents rights to see their kids!!

Spero · 07/07/2009 16:06

You don't need a criminal record.

If one parent alleges the other has been violent, the court MUST hold a fact finding hearing, to determine the nature and extent of the violence.

It has been accepted for a long time now that being violent to the other parent of your child is a massive failure of parenting. The child only has to hear what is going on, let alone see it or get caught up in it, to probably suffer quite serious emotional trauma.

Sadly I have acted for parents in many many cases where one parent makes up a load of lies against the other and we have to waste months and lots of public money dealing with it in court.

This is so dangerous as it inevitably detracts from the cases where there really is violence and abuse, and I can understand why sometimes the police response is less than ideal - they get pissed off with it as well.

lostdad · 08/07/2009 08:23

100% agree, Spero.

Parents who lie about violence and abuse in court to get what they want are showing contempt for people who have really suffered it. They also waste scant resources which should be spent on people who do need them.

In my case I had the obligatory child abuse and DV allegations thrown in right at the very start of the case (no police, no SS, no CAFCASS, no nothing - maybe I'll file the statement next to my CRB certificate one day...). All forgotten and now we are over two years down the line they've been mentioned again because the case has reached a turning point.

Those who have suffered abuse with their children get my entire sympathy. Those who lie about it get my entire contempt.

SarahMac30 · 08/07/2009 10:08

I wanted to add something here. Where does emotional abuse and bullying come into this. My DD who is 6 has decided that she no longer wishes to see her Father. He was emotionally abusive and bullying to me in our marriage and now appears to be the same with our DD. He also has anger problems. I have encouraged and indeed instigated for the most part a relationship between Father and Daughter. However I have finally listened to my DD and know she is quite old enough to know what she does and doesn't want. I only hope that Cafcass will listen to HER...not me nor her Father. It is about how she feels and what she has had to endure from her Father. It has caused vivid nightmares and bedwetting in the past. So yes, where does this come into the equation?

sunshine13 · 08/07/2009 11:06

I seriously doubt that a desicion made at 6 is the right one or a long- lasting one.

It's good that you encourage the relatiopnship between father and child. If you have anger -mangement concerns about him then CAFCASS will no doubt be looking at that & this will reflect in their desicion probably. Maybe he can go on a course to help him overcome it.

If he wants to be involved in his daughter's life then you should continue encouraging this.

GypsyMoth · 08/07/2009 12:16

If he's abusive in any way then move his contact to a contact centre where it can be observed. Take no chances.

My ex went on several anger management courses. A dv programme too. But yet he carries on. They don't work for him. Guess they don't work for everyone!

cestlavielife · 08/07/2009 14:32

agree that these types of petitions do more ahrm than good - there has to be evidence ...

when it comes to emotional abuse it IS about perception - bullying, harasssment - the definitions come back to the victim -not the abuser:

Definition

Bullying among children is understood as repeated, negative acts committed by one or more children against another. These negative acts may be physical or verbal in nature for example, hitting or kicking, teasing or taunting or they may involve indirect actions such as manipulating friendships or purposely excluding other children from activities. Implicit in this definition is an imbalance in real or perceived power between the bully and victim.
ojjdp.ncjrs.org/jjbulletin/9804/bullying2.html

harassment - Harassment
Employment context:-
Any unwanted or uninvited behaviour which is offensive, embarrassing, intimidating or humiliating.

unwanted or uninvited - it is the "victim" who gets to decide.
www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/C/CriminalHarassment.aspx

Whoever willfully and maliciously engages in a knowing pattern of conduct or series of acts over a period of time directed at a specific person, which seriously alarms that person and would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, shall be guilty of the crime of criminal harassment....

"which seriously alarms that person"

if the child is "seriously alarmed" shows signs eg bedwetting - that has to be taken seriously.

if the adult involved appreciates their actions have impact, they will seek to change that if they are made aware. if they do not, then they have the problem - not the victim.

i have been advised by CAFCASS to suggest to my child that she at 9 "manages her dad's behaviour" herself by talking to him about it....it is a lot to ask of a child.
i found it so hard myself - so i left him... was unable to -how can one expect that of a child?

SarahMac30 · 30/07/2009 13:20

Sunshine....do you have children yourself? I seriously doubt this and your comment that if he wants to be involved then the Mother should encourage this. Excuse me if I am wrong but I encouraged my 6 year old to see her father, against her wishes and it has resulted in his bullying her and her never wanting to see him again. She has nightmares and is obviously scared of him. Perhaps take your comments elsewhere!

SarahMac30 · 30/07/2009 13:44

And further to that Sunshine I stated in my post that is not about me or him but about the welfare of a little girl.

GypsyMoth · 30/07/2009 13:46

sarah........i encouraged mine to do the same. few years back this was,when i was open to contact. he put my daughter in the boot of his car for a trip to the garden centre,as his mate was going with them and there weren't enough seats!!!! never again will they go ANYWHERE with him (not only thing he did)

SarahMac30 · 31/07/2009 21:19

OMG Ilovetiffany!!!! Sounds similar to mine. I'll be he couldn't see what all the fuss was about. Just so cross that others assume that we are being selfish when actually that could not be further from the truth. I have been separated from exH for 5 years now. Only in the last 10 months have I said no to contact and as I said that was from my DD. Until then I had encouraged it and now I feel so damn guilty that I put her in that situation. He was a bully with me but I really thought he wouldn't put her through the same. She is terrified of him and I still haven't got to the bottom of it. I am waiting for CAFFCASS to talk to her as I am not willing to push the issue. She has mentioned some things and I do wonder if there is more. Whatever the outcome she will have the memories of this for ever and it is Mummy who has to pick up the pieces and sit with her when she has nightmares about him! Also I think that at the age of 6 they can be taken seriously. I KNOW MY CHILD and I know what she is going through is genuine. Just so peed off at Sunshine's comments......rant over lol!

noraledger · 01/08/2009 10:00

Do the courts have to do a fact finding hearing? When i went before the judge and my soliciotr mentioned the dv the judge said that he found it highly unlikely that my exp is any danger to my dd even though he did grant me a non molestation order.
The judge also said that despite the claims i made that exp has said that he will take my dd and i will never see her again that in his opinion this was highly unlikely and felt that i was just fishing and making up stories.
I have had no fact finding hearing and i havent even got to th stage of meeting with Cafcass yet (apart from in the court lobby)

Bellsa · 01/08/2009 10:14

I used to be a family law solicitor, and am now a LP myself (left family law as found it just too depressing). You have to see it from both sides. I worked with women who suffered dv and struggled with ex-partners attempting to use the court system to continue the mental abuse. To help the situation, there is the option of contact centres, or involving a third party in pick up/drop off. If there are real concerns about the welfare of the children at contact then CAFCASS will assess, as will SS, if serious case, and the criminal courts can also be involved.
On the other side I also worked with a lot of fathers who were denied contact with their children because of allegations which had not been proved, and in some cases were then proved to be made up. I was shocked at how easy it was for these allegations to be made by the non-resident parent. The other parent (usually the father) then typically had contact suspended until CAFCASS reported, and after 12 weeks contact then resumed...
There are difficulties on both sides and the problem is that it is difficult to legislate as no two cases are the same. That's why there are hearings to determine the issues. I agree that it's not a perfect system (far from it) but what are the alternatives?

noraledger · 01/08/2009 11:24

Bellsa, i understand exactly what you mean about parents being able to just make things up (as that is exactly what my ex has done)but i just dont understand how a judge can take one look at my ex and say that he does not pose a threat. I have a police report and photo evidence of the harm that he had done to me and yet the judge say's he is not a risk.
At the end of the day, if he is not a risk then why did the judge give me a non molestation order? If he has abused me then why would he not abuse his daughter in the same way (which he has)?
My exp is still controlling what i do, as he has been able to ask for telephone contact to my dd. she cant even string a sentance together. I have no home phone so he phones my work mobile. It's a joke!

SarahMac30 · 01/08/2009 21:40

Bellsa hello.
I realise that there are always two sides to a story but in most cases surely the only side that should be heard is the child. My DD is 6 and knows what she does and does not want. She is bright and very astute for her age. Surely that should be taken into account.

GypsyMoth · 02/08/2009 15:40

Sarah...did your DD have a wishes and feelings meeting with cafcass? at 6 they can do things with her,and should listen. they did to my 6 year old

Bellsa · 02/08/2009 20:34

Sorry to post and run before. Sarah-yes I agree, and as ILT has said that should be done via CAFCASS. Hope you all have luck in sorting your situations out.
Nora. Yes.your situation sounds awful. I hope CAFCASS see through him eventually.

kittycatty · 09/08/2009 14:37

Cafcass told my friend any father is better than no father. How can that be right?

I understand there are some fab dads out there (i know some) but what happens to a child can and does affect them for the rest of their lives.

Does anyone know if cafcass go back a few years down the line to see how the childrens lives have benefitted or not by their reccomendations?

carter657 · 09/08/2009 16:43

my ex partner was extremely violent to myself (has been convicted) and from what ive been told since girlfriends before but he still sees ds.

he may have huge issues with women but he loves ds and he loves his dad and it is wrong to stop this.

i honestly believe it should be upto the childrne - if theyre scared to go etc not the parent