Ok its early but exH has asked the Christmas question.

[skramble]

He wants to do year about, I am thinking over my dead body.

Asked DS, lightly what he thought, I didn't weight the question. he said at home, meaning with me.

exH is adiment they have two homes, DS calls this home and daddy's house somewhere he stays, its cool, His words.

ExH wants all 4 of us to discuss it togehter, I never wanted to put the children in the position of having to choose, they are 9 and 12. It seems so wrong.

I think the main reason that exH wants them on Christmas day is that he works 27th and christmas day is so much easier for him, I just can't imagine christmas eve and christmas morning wihout them.

Are you worried about letting your DCs be with him because you are worried that he won't create the magic for them?

That is a heartbreaking thought. If they did spend Christmas with him you could make sure that stockings and pressies from your side are all handed over to him in black bin liners so that they're ready to go and you would have the satisfaction of knowing they'd still be able to enjoy the magic even if you're not there.

I really hope you find a way through this.

Not a chance that I would hand over all the stuff I get, for him to give to them, what would they open with me, are you a parent? I am not putting in all the effort to make it special while he does feck all like usual.

They may be 9 and 12 but very much love the magic of Chirtmas and when I think of all the special things that I have done for them over the years and it has all been me. I put in all the work looking after them all year long.

You have referred to yourself seven times in your last post.

In my opinion, parenting is 99% about the children and only 1% about the parent.

Yup I refer to myself because it is all down to me, as I said are you actually a parent? a lone parent? Or are you really lucky and you and exH and partners all go traipsing in to the school nativity play together all lovely and perfect with perfect children .

Fine I am a selfish cow, and I love my children with a passion that burns, I will do what I think is right for them and no one else.

i hope you find a way through too.

FWIW it seems to me that you've been (understandably) angry for so long that you can't now see how very angry you appear and sound on this thread with your ex and you can't see how this IS being put above your kids

If you weren't so angry (again, understandably so) it might seem a sensible and pragmatic thing to do for your KIDS to have stuff to open on xmas day that you have provided in order that THEY have that lovely experience. It's about IMO dealing with the situation as it actually is rather than 'I'm not doing it while he does nothing' because if you think that way it is only your KIDS who experience any kind of consequence.

I have a divorced friend who ISN'T angry any longer and tbh I think she would do this for her kids. Yes she'd think her ex was a useless waste of space not to be able to organise it but she wouldn't punish her kids to make the point

oh blimey I really don't want to blame you as clearly this is not your choice to be in this situation but from outside it is clear your anger is there..

Well, I think it's my bed time. It'll be an early start tomorrow!

Really good luck Krumble.

Krumble I so identify with you. As I said earlier I was the one who did everything and he was Bah Humbug.

By 'letting' my dcs go to him for xmas if the wrong thing imo as it wouldn't be the xmas they are used to and I think it would break their heart that's their dad just didn;t bloody bother. They hated the fact that he doesn't even decorate.

If you think that your dcs would suffer a miserable xmas with him I think you are right to have it the normal way.

I couldn't think of anything more heartbreaking than for my dcs to feel that their xmas was spoiled by me 'letting' them go to their dads this time, because I know they would not like it.

It's a really horrible situation to be in.

I only have one DS and he is only three. Last year his dad announced it was "his turn" to have him at Christmas. (we split up when DS was one so I had had him on the christmas when he was two so....)

DS's dad never has him over night and often lets him down - to the point where I do not even tell DS he will see his Dad until I can actually see him approoaching the house to get him. Ex has been a total arse about so many things and totally broke my heart so I have a lot of resentment towards him.

I was surprised when he said he was taking DS at Christmas - crap Dad for years then gets the best day of the year

However Ex was spending christmas with his family - his mum (DS's grandma who he never sees), Ex's sister and her family (three wee boys) and Ex's daughter who DS loves and never sees as she lives abroad with her mum.

Of course is typical that Ex therefore wouldn;t actually be doing any of the "heavy lifting" required as a single parent as he had a whole team on board but that's life.

I had a miserable christmas as missed DS so much so am looking ofrward to this year when it is my turn

obviously your situation is very different as your children are older and can make their own minds up. If they would rather spend it with you then I think it is unfair to make them go to their dad's as that wouldnlt be in their best interest (taking your feelings out of the equation) the issue would be that your Ex will blame you and then it could get messy.

In terms of spending christmas as one big happy family - don;t even go there. That is what my Ex and his Ex tried to do for their daughter.

I had to spend christmas at his Ex's house while they cooked together and joked around and I felt left out (I wasn;t the OW as such as they had split up for years before I met Ex). I don;t think it was the best solution for their DD at all as was so false and awkward. I loved their DD and spent a lot of time with her, but hated having to hang out with her mum

My DS loves having mummy and daddy together but I try to avoid it as think it gives a false impression of a "happy family". To be Ex will always be the selfish arse who couldn;t handle the responsbilities of being a dad so I do not want to play happy families with him as do not think it helps DS at all as it is not reality

at the thought of anyone wrapping stockings, presents, etc and then handing them over to ExP for him/OW to take credit for. No Way. If you 'have' to take turns for actual Christmas, then I think the DC should get 2 Christmas Days - one with each parent. Do your stuff on whichever one you have them for, and what ExP does on "his" Christmas is 100% down to him.

krumble - im totally with you on this one.
Im already worried about xmas and its only june. My dd is 3. There is no way on this earth that he will be having her xmas day or boxing day. NO WAY! he can have her xmas eve and the day after boxing day but thats it. Depending on how the relatioship between us is ( and its not good at all at the momment ) he might be able to come over for a few hours xmas day.
Hes not seeing his daughter regulary now, he lets her down, changes the goal posts the whole time. He doesnt even have anywhere to take her. Ive had to stop him having her overnight as he said he might abduct her and i wouldnt know about it.........
He has never bothered with xmas before... so i doubt he will do now AND why should he, he makes no effort at any other time of the year get one of the best days of the year. He has only lived with her for about 8 months of her life too.
I very much doubt it would be in our dughters best interests for her to spend the day with him, away from me and her home who she is with 99.9% of the time.
And i dont care if people think im selfish or whatever, becuase thats how it is.
Im sure most of us didnt really choose to be lone parents, and its all made worse when you lose you marriage and then are expected to suddenly hand over your child and not care.
You do whatever you think is best. Im sure the saying on here a lot of the time is 'happy mummy, happy baby' so do whats right for you.

I think anyone that suggests that a parent wraps up all th stuff and sends it to the other parent so the children can have the magic is not someone who is actually in that situation, they will have magic, with me. Why would my children want to open my present to them without me being there? Madness!! Same made people that suggest all having Christmas together, that is something many seperated couples try the first year, then never again, and if you have new partners its def not going to work.

Anyway back to reality, I am going to suggest they spend Christmas eve and Christmas morning here then we will go round to the PIL where I will either stay and open presents there or he can come down and they can open his presents and PIL presents with him, I will save their 'big' presents for another time and I will go and have dinner with my mum or DP if he is by then my DP.

That way I can have my special time with them, exH can have Christmas eve and morning with OW in their new flat then come down or they can stay overnight at PIL so they are there first thing.

And FWIW I am not all that angry about everything, I am a very emotional person I will give you that and...

I am angry at the though of them spending Christmas eve, day and boxing day with him, angry that I put all the work in over the year and he just turns up at parent nights and some shows they put on and expect to have them all christmas and can sit there lapping up how wonderful his children are.

I am angry that this arrangement is because he works 27th and I suspect OW will be the one creating the magic, not him. Which is nice of her, I realised last year that a lot of the presents were things she had sourced not him (because of where they come from).

I am genuinely glad that they get on with her, it would be horrible for them to visit daddy and not like her, she is kind to them and seems to do little thoughtful things for them rather than him doing it, same with his parents, I see little gifts they have been given and I know who picks them.

So any anger is not directed at her, and I think a 9 and 12 year old can accept that I don't like her much and be made to feel it is still OK for them to like her.

So I will put my idea to him, don't know how he will take it as he seems to be dead set it will be year about and thinks it is all about being fair to him.

krumble,

I am a stepmother, and as such, the "OW". I had nothing to do with dh's marriage breaking up, I met him a long time after they separated, but I am still viewed as the OW by his ex.

I htink you are mistaken when you say "I think a 9 and 12 year old can accept that I don't like her much and be made to feel it is still OK for them to like her"

my step children are 17 and 18 now (were 9 and 10 when i first met them) and are still confused by their mother's reactions to me. She goes through phases (doesn't everyone? she is only human, and has emotions, after all) where sometimes it doesn't bother her, and it sometimes does. In the early days of dh & my relationship she was really quite hostile, and it really, really upset the children.

they would spend a nice weekend with us, go home, and listen to lots of rubbish about how I was interfering, trying to be their motehr (when I washed their clothes for them - didn't have an option as she hadn't packed enough stuff, for eg - or when I helped them wash hair, or similar). I know this first hand, as the children have spoken to me about it.

Please don't underestimate the confusion that you can cause by not liking someone your children like, it can run very deep.

I had a close friend who's dp left her for an ow, (though there was infidelity on both sides but that's by the by).

Like the OP, she "hid" behind the children - sorry if that sounds harsh but that is exactly what you are doing. She claimed it was all about the children and what they wanted yet in truth it was all about her own feelings of bitterness and resentment. I CAN understand those feelings, but think you need to be honest with yourself.

My ex friend (we have actually fallen out over this) refused to share xmas insisting that the children belonged at "home". She also insisted that she never bad mouthed her ex but the children knew EXACTLY what she thought of him and ow - her dd (aged 7) said on a playdate with my dd that her Mummy thought the ow was a bitch and that she wished she would drop down dead! Apparently she overheard her Mum on the phone to a friend saying this.

She tried to control their time with their Dad, insisting that they were in his care at all times and would not allow the ow to look after them, even though they had at this point been together for 3 years.

I tried to talk to her as did others but she insisted it was "what the children wanted" as they had told her. It's true, they had, but everyone could see they had divided loyalties.

Anyhow, her ex took her to court in the end. I tried to support her but the court welfare lady said she was damaging the children by not sharing special times. She said that children fare better when they see both parents houses as "home" as this is better for their emotional wellbeing in the long run. The lady went to see the kids with their Dad and observed that they had a good relationship with the ow but she still would not hear of it and in the end we fell out and don't speak now.

I heard through a mutual friend that her ex now has a defined court order and that this allows him to decide who the children are cared for by, including the ow if he decides that. The order says they must alternate xmas, the children's birthdays and have half the school holidays. The children spoke the court lady and aid to her this is what they wanted. My ex friend is still insisting they do not.........

I'm not saying you are like her but from reading your posts I can see some distinct similariaties and honestly I think your hurt and bitterness are affecting your judgement on this one.

Just mho

SG

PS Both my DH and I have kids from previous relationships and we both share alternate Christmas' with the kids. It's hard but for the kidsake it's the only way. Sorry, I know this is not what you will want to hear

What supagirl said.

I think we've all been thru it/are going thru it on this thread, so nobody is trying to say that you shouldn't feel angry, hurt and resentful... just be honest about it and don't use the children as an excuse.

Unlike silverfrogs experience I don't make them listen to lots of rubbish and don't go on about her interfering.

Of course a lot of this is my emotion and how hard I fing this all to deal with.

But it may suprise you I am not a bitter and twisted person and it is all about the kids for me, big time!!

My 12 year old son has stated he wants Christmas at home and does not consider his fathers flat to be his home.

Maybe instead of you all getting excited about how much of a selfish bitter person I am, maybe if you saw the reality of it all and undestood how this all works in reality you would understand better.

I do 99% of the parenting and make all the decisions the rest of the time about their lives as he is not there and does not contribute to decision making or bringing them up. they are brought up by me all year and maybe that means I do have more control over their lives than him.

I may switch things around anyway as it look slike he will come down to his mums and only wants to stick around for a short while on Christmas morning rather than actually having them for any length of time. Always the same whenever he gets a chance to have them for longer he doesn't, dropped off DS this morning when he could have had him all day, as he couldn't think what to do with him

Please don't judge when you don't know much about it.

mrsjammi thats what I was actually suggesting, (helps if people read) that they woke up with me and be with him at what ever time he chooses to come down to his mums, then they go home with him and stay for a couple of days. I thought that was a good comprimise. He is most likely to be working 27th so he could have them all day boxing dayor if he works boxing day they could stay over and he would have them all day 27th.

Last year he worked 27th, so I took them for the day, he still goes on about how I took the kids off him eventhough he was working and we all had a good day then he got them back as soon as he finished work and they stayed over that night, he had the chance of having them all day 28th he dropped them off first thing.

As it is he now has suggested to DD that he has them Christmas eve and Christmas morning, I am guessing not for long so I could go round lunchtime and have all the rest of the time with them and he doesn't even have to take a day off work , if I had known he only wanted them for such a short time I might have gone for that anyway. Would have prefered him to discuss it with me first.

Maybe if he has a mature conversation with me about it he will get something closer to what he wants, all depends on DS though, but I think if it is Christmas eve and morning at Granny's with daddy he might be Ok about that. As I said it is all about the kids, and the fact I bring them up and know them.

FWIW I would like DS to think he had two homes, but he doesn't see it that way, perhaps as he hardly goes there and doesn't have much there apart from pjs and a toothbrush.