What is fair access for the father of my children???/

[tabbi]

I really need some advice from some women out there, who have been in the same position as me.
My partner and I are separating, we have a 4 and a half year old daughter, and son who is nearly three.
With regards to financial settlements, we've managed to avoid using lawyers, by coming to an agreement about how to fairly buy him out of the house we jointly own.

The problem now is access. He wants to see his children a great deal more than I would like. In fact, if he had his way, I'd just be in charge of the school run, whilst he had all the quality time.

Don't get me wrong, I want my children to have a good relationship with their father, but it needs to be fair.

Anyone out there in a similar situation who has sorted out this access minefield?

tabbi, not the same situation but I do feel for you so much. I hope there is someone or many that can give you advice that is relevant. For what its worth, my advice, regardless of the personal heartache, is to retain the moral highground. The dc will not always be little and when they are adults, you will always be the one in the right. The one who deserves respect for looking beyond her own nose and considering the rest of the family. In my experience, men find the general day to day stuff quite hard, please just be patiant. Wishing you Health and Happiness.

blanki- thanks for such a kind and considered reply. It is a great reminder, not to get caught up in all the bitterness, and to be the 'grown up' in all this unpleasantness.

When we first split, he came every day for tea/bed (4 kids, 4-9 years old) for a few weeks

Then it we went down 4 times a week for a few more weeks. Eventually settled down to wed after school til 7 in term time, 1-7pm holidays and sat 11-6, staying over every 2 weeks (though that is flexible depending on mine or his plans, in the summer I had 4 weekend on trot and he had the next four)

It's good you have managed without solicitors as IME they just cause aggro between the couple. I'd let him see them as often as he wants (within reason) It's hard on the man to leave kids behind and it's very hard on the kids and they need to know Daddy still loves them and wants to be with them. If it is possible to stay friendly, it's much better for all (i know, not always possible)

You don't have to use a solicitor but talking to one might help. I have and he was great - very in favour of avoiding solicitors .

Basically, it has to be workable and flexible - small children get sick, grow up, and their needs change constantly. He got me to write it down and include some of the smaller details, like picking-up/dropping off. He said things most usually go badly after the event when people forget what they verbally agreed to and by writing it down, you could well be avoiding some acrimony and ending up in court later on.

What would be the best case scenario for you? What does your ex- want? Is there a compromise?

My ex wants the children on a Wednesday overnight, 24 hours at the weekend, and on alternate weekends for two nights.

I suggested overnight on Wednesday, and 24 hours at the weekend. So all we're disagreeing on is the 2 nights on alternate weekends. I feel it's too long for them to be away from their mother, at such a young age- but he sees it very differently. I'm aware there are 2 sides to this story, many would argue that it's equally important to spend loads of time with their dad.

What a mess.

If I did see a solicitor, I don't have a clue as to what they'de put forward.

Also- anyone out there have any advice on what I should say to the children is happening when daddy leaves home? We were thinking of, 'Daddy needs to live somewhere else because of his work...' Surely they're too young to digest anything deeper? And why burden them with anything more complicated?

Any thoughts, please....?

Tabbi

You're not poles apart on the access problem which is good. How about try it his way and see how the kids react OR try it your way but with the proviso that his access will probably increase naturally as the children get older.

My ex also wanted lots of access to our daughter ( she was 6 when he left - now 8).
He works shifts so wanted us to fit in with his shift pattern. He fought me for mid week overnight access ( on random days each week) and got it. However our daughter refused to go to his overnight mid week so now he picks her up from school Mon, Tues and Fri until 6.30pm and has her overnight 2 of the Fridays and one full weekend every six weeks. Bloomin complicated but it works for us.

The full weekend is not an unreasonable request from your ex but if you're not happy with the suggestion don't do it.I do agree that writing it down will help focus and remind everyone in future.

No idea about how to tell the children etc. We were upfront with daughter and to be honest she seems on the face of it to have accepted the situation.

Also sorry to hear that you are in this situation.Well done for being amicable etc. Very grown up!!

I told the boys on my own - my ex- left in the middle of the night, without saying, "good-bye"; not the best of ideas. I went with the simple facts: "We are living here together and Daddy is living in X. I love you. He loves you. It will be OK, you'll .... (and a list of the things that weren't changing) and it is fine to feel sad or to cry." The boys were 5 and almost 4, at the time, and I am convinced that they already knew.

I can see where you're coming from about the weekends and wirral's arrangement actually makes sense to me. You need some weekend time with your children and so will their Dad. It is only a matter of finding the balance and it sounds to me like you're doing a very good job in getting there.

I have the same thing as you in that my ex seems to want more time that I would call 'quality time', ie, weekends and holidays when my DD is likely to be much more pleasant company than the grumpy after and pre-school hours

I don't know if this is a mad thing to do, but I divided the week into hours on squared paper, and coloured them in as what I see as quality time or not, ie, weekends green, schoolnights red, depending on how I saw them. I then discussed it with him and we found it easier to divide up the quaility time hours equally. (I know it sounds a bit OTT, but it was causing me quite a lot of resentment, and was hard to explain without the visual guide.)

I would just add that, although in principle, you may want to have them more of the time, in practice you may enjoy having some time to yourself, so keep an open mind.

Like you, I didn't feel that my DD would be happy with two nights away from me at 4 yrs, and we have built up to it gradually. I also don't like to agree to too much at first as in my case is can be hard to renegotiate less time with him at a later date.

I think you also need to think about how stressful and tiring single motherhood is

You may find that once you are into it fulltime, that extra 24 hours of peace, every fortnight is a godsend for you to recharge and relax. I really need my time away from the kids , even though I adore them

Also, think to the future a bit further. If you meet a new partner, those times when the kids are away are perfect date nights, without the kids needed to know anything

An extra 24 hours in a fortnight isn't too much really, he will have less than 48 hours one week, less than 60 the next, you will have 240 hours and 216 the next (maybe a bit more)

He may get bored of the every weekend thing too, seems to be much easier for men to go out at weekends and I doubt he will want to lose that forever

I personally would agree to the the extra night and see how it goes. It can always be changed later if it isn't working for either of you and if you keep it amicable, it will be easier to revisit

Hmmm, well my dd is 4.8 and sees her dad for a week every two months - I wanted it to be more frequent shorter visits but ended up settling for what he was able and willing to stick to.

The issue with 'quality time' is hard - daddy does tend to become the 'fun' parent whereas mummy is all about eating yer greens and mopping up the sick - but I think its an issue that will exist unless you have a real 50/50 split.

Also I agree about the time to yourself - at first I really resisted dd being away for so long but now I do feel that at least I do get a good chance to unwind and recharge every now and than.

Whatever realistically works bearing in mind both of your work committments and schedules.

It's good that you can avoid using solicitors. It may be that you could suggest both of you attending a local Family Mediation services, you discuss any children matters/arrangements and it can be written up by a solicitor and would be legally binding.

Or if you do go down the tapeworm (sorry, solicitors) route then use one who is a member of Resolution (google it), they are supposed to promote alternative dispute resolution.

I speak from experience of going through the lottery and circle of hell that is the family court system when my controlling ex applied for a sole residence order, I counter-applied for a shared residence order which is in place now. I didn't use solicitors as they are by and large a useless, lazy, incompetent and greedy bunch of lying toerags. I self-represented and performed 10 times better.

My opinion would be to go for a pretty much equal shared care arrangement. Yes, dad should get involved in the nitty-gritty of the school routine as this is what being a parent is all about - plus the children don't learn gender stereotyped roles of mum does the hard work (school) and see's dad at the weekends.

At the age of the children there should be no problem for the children spending a couple of consecutive overnights at dads. What makes you think they don't miss dad? And since when did they become YOUR children? they aren't possessions!

There is no reason why the pattern he has proposed shouldn't work, hell, give it a try and see what happens!

I dont think that 2 nights in a row is unreasonable. At this age, my ds2 went abroad with ex h to his country for around 2 months. I am not suggesting this was a good thing, but ds was OK, because he was with his father.

Once you are used to the arrangement, it can be quite handy to have weekends off, to re-charge your batteries, and also if you meet someone else, to get to know them a bit without your children being aware.

My partner wanted to have my daughter two nights one weekend, one the next, and two again the following, then a weekend off and then the same thing repeated, which meant that I would only have one full weekend in four. (This sounds similar to what the OP is being asked for, without the full weekend to herself.)
I don't know how other people's children react to school, but my daughter is a different person at the weekends and school holidays to how she is on a school day. (She's now eight, so this is not just a snap judgement )

I actually felt that my relationship with her would suffer if I didn't get more downtime with her at weekends. In the end we agreed on every other weekend and one night in the week, to be arranged to fit XDP's work pattern.
I didn't get the impression that anyone thinks the children are 'possessions', the ex has the right to ask for what access he would like, and the other parent can ask for what suits them. It's mainly when there can be no discussion that the huge problems arise.

And that weekday overnight is a Godsend! Much more valuable to me than the weekend days, AND it gives him a much more 3D picture of what her life is really like. He likes it too, as he has more idea of what she is doing at school and who her friends are.

Good luck.

i have a problem me and my ex have a 3 yr old son whos been diagnosed with ASD my ex has our son sat nite all day sunday and after nursery on mondays then drops him off at tea time he lives in a room which consists on the bedroom living room and kitchen hes not the cleanest of people either the thing is i dont trust him with our son at all hes come home with tar melted to his shoes and jeans bruises up his spine on his thighs cuts under his feet i ask him how hes done them and all i get is abuse and name calling hes been brought home with a tshirt under his coat and was cold to the bone our son is in nursery all week and i wanted to arrange summit for the week end with him and now i am being accused of stopping his dad from seeing him he now says that hes going to a solicitor to show these so called messages about me stopping him i will hold my hands up i have given him abuse when hes dished it out but nothing of what i am being accused of anyone been in this situation with advice for me please he also has him sleeping on a camp bed

First, well done to both of you for trying to resolve it without solicitors. If you can achieve that, it's definitely the right thing to do.

I will offer you another perspective. And I'll start with a question, that's deliberately a bit challenging - why do you believe that two nights is "too long for them to be away from their mother", but 3-4 nights is absolutely fine for them to be away from their father? Do they not love their father too? Do they not have the same right to a close and meaningful relationship with their father, as with their mother? If you can put yourself into your children's shoes, you will see that is clearly not a reasonable position - you are both their parents. They love you both. In their eyes, and in the eyes of the law, you are equal parents.

It sounds as though there's an unspoken assumption in your position that your role as mother is somehow superior to that of their father. It also comes out in some of the other comments on here from other mothers, suggesting that men can't handle the day to day care of kids. That is simply untrue, and it is highly sexist prejudice. Men are often caring, nurturing, loving and very capable parents.

I've laboured that point, but it's important. If you can set that sexist baggage to one side, you'll be able to do a far better job of putting the needs of your kids first.

Your concern about quality versus non-quality time is a legitimate one. For me, an ideal split is one where both parents are closely involved with all aspects of their children's lives - whether that's homework and days off school sick, or fun & games at the weekend. That's because a really close relationship is forged from all that stuff. And there's a wealth of research that supports how important it is for kids'wellbeing, to have that quality of relationship with both their parents.

On that note, there's a lot to be said for 50/50 equal shared care. That's the set up I have - two weekday nights with each parent, and alternating Friday to Sunday nights. But it really does depend upon whether that is practical - that only works when both parents can commit to being there for the kids.

I totally get where your ex is coming from with his suggestion - he doesn't want to go for long periods without seeing his kids. I also get why you don't want to lose so much weekend time. So the key is compromise. Can you offer more time during the week, in order to secure the full weekend every other week? That could address both your concerns.

I would also say eow is reasonable. If you are concerned then maybe suggest one night for a couple of weekends and assuming all goes well then 2 nights eow.

I don’t think 2 nights away with dad at 41/2 is too much

Totally agree with @SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad

If the shoe was on the other foot how long would you want? Would you be ‘happy’ having them for 24 hours?

I would have said one over night in the week and EOW was entirely reasonable - that's still only 4 nights a fortnight!

I wouldn't necessarily add in the 24 hours in the other weekend as well, otherwise you'll never get a full weekend with them. Maybe a friday night the week he doesn't have the weekend?

I think generally the amount of access he's asking for is entirely reasonable.

11 year old thread has been resurrected for some reason...

Anyway why is it that 2 nights is too long to be seperated from the mother but 2 weeks is just fine to be seperated from the father?

"11 year old thread has been resurrected for some reason..."

I'm guessing the OP's question is probably moot now. The "kid" should now be 15!

OP: if you're out there, and feel inclined to, let us know how things worked out.