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Use our Single Parent forum to speak to other parents raising a child alone.

Unconscious bias and privilege - thoughts

37 replies

ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:03

Hello. First post here, be nice.

I count myself, broadly, as a feminist. That is to say, in my case, I have a genuine heartfelt belief in equality across all spheres and in all directions, where at all possible and practical. As a white man myself, I fully agree that men have had privilege for thousands of years, time immemorial, and entirely see the that erosions of these is seen by certain types of man as some kind of victimisation, rather than a simple move towards equality. I feel it can be seen across our society, this 'hard done by' thing many men feel, and believe it's reflected in our politics, retrenchment to supposed tradtionalism etc.

It is hard, then, to ignore what I feel is the one sphere that men usually get an awful rap in, and that is family matters. I don't, in most ways, think white men have a leg to stand on when they talk about bias. In general, even in cases where they may feel things are unfair, even if there is a minor argument of merit, it's simply a small issue, and unlike anything ethnic minorities, women, LGBT etc groups have had to face. When it comes to one's children, though, it ceases to be a matter of injustice that doesn't matter because this demographic 'has it coming' or something similar. Children transcend all things and place this issue separate and universal.

I'll be honest. I had some hesitance about joining because I have read threads in the past where it has felt - and I use that word deliberately - that a lot of people on here are essentially anti-father, or at least the sentiments run so strongly against men for some individuals that it feels quite intimidating. I'm sure the same thing can be levelled at many men. But I do believe this is a big issue and an important one for contemporary society, and frankly it's exemplified by this being called Mumsnet. I fully understand the context and background, but I guess I just believe that, if society really does espouse equality, the ideal would simply be Parentnet - at least moving forwards.

I must confess: I wonder about all this because I feel I'm in a terrible position with my children, and cannot but feel it is because of my gender. Boohoo, you might say, but again - if we ignore gender, or if this was happening to a woman, I believe the boohoo-ers might feel different, and that isn't right. The more I have read about the current 'justice' system, the more powerless and depressed I feel about any chance I may have to address my situation. I also feel very vulnerable as I'm told [by some genuinely objective, people, including a mediator!] that some solicitors etc. advise women to lie about their exes in order to 'win' in court situations. All that I've seen in the last year leads me to believe my ex is not at all the person I thought she was, and is capable of anything, including the classic do-not of using our child as a weapon. Ultimately, it is due to the actions of men in the past and too many Weinsteins of today, but there seems to be a genuine unconscious bias against men in this sphere.

Imagine a pilot. White man, middle aged, for most people.Unconscious, unintended to be harmful, bias. Imagine a single parent. Chances are, that's a women. That may be the social history, but there's no reason for it now. And a pertinent one - how many assume that I must somehow have been a bad dad, or a bad person, to have found myself in this situation? Or that I am simply bitter, or jealous, or somehow not simply invested fully in my children with a heart that breaks as much as yours would if simply being excluded due to someone else's selfishness?

A perfect example is that I - as a young man - saw those Fathers 4 Justice guys climbing up Big Ben or whatever, and you know what? I remember thinking 'Well, mate, you shouldn't have cheated on her, or beaten her up, or been an idtiot' - that kind of thing. This was me, a man, assuming that the man must've DONE something to deserve being excluded from his children. Isn't that something? Again, for anyone still boohoo-ing, I say this - thisisn't about man vs woman for me, at all. I don't at all defend the sexism that has and does exist in society towards women. I just don't think an appropriate response is spite and cruelty in some kind of perceived justice-by-revenge. All I've learnt over the last few months are things I simply can't believe are allowed to be the case in this country, and can't believe that people allow it - particularly those calling themselves feminists. I honestly had no idea things were the way they are, to the point that 88% of men being given 'contact' in court is considered inherent proof of fairness (including those limited to phone contact), or that even a mediator doesn't think it's madness to freely tell me that I might have to simply accept a situation that isn't fair or, arguably, best for my child.

If it was you, would you be ok with someone saying "at least you see your children..." or "Some dads don't see them at all!" Believe me, this is no answer to fundamental injustice, and in my case, and for my children, I fully believe that's exactly what this is. Would the Pankhursts have been placated by "Hey, at least we don't legally own wives any more..." I don't think so. And before you say "it's not the same" - I fully agree. But equally, this can't be an issue that is marginalised because society doesn't see it as big as a social issue - because, again - this is my children.

Sorry for the ramble. And if you say I'm angry - yes, of course I am. I am distraught and bitterly disappointed in people and astounded at how things are, and how little importance society puts on it - particularly those people in society for whom this status quo is beneficial.

OP posts:
ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:10

Just interested in our thoughts on this. I guess I'll get a few diverse answers. But is this something that bothers people in general? Is this seen as an issue here? Has the #metoo good stuff also allowed a demonisation of men without cause in some cases? I fully believe my ex was manipulative and in certain ways abusive and controlling - but I, being part of this society, didn't really think to see it - but now I genuinely fear she may level all sorts of lies in my direction and be believed without due cause. It's a scary position, personally, but I certainly think we are at some kinf of potential crossroads in how parenting and child's rights in all this work. In Australia they are already quite different.

OP posts:
Ardant · 14/06/2018 22:35

What on earth are you trying to say? I've tried and tried to make sense of it and I'm no wiser. Confused

Arkengarthdale · 14/06/2018 22:40

TLDR

and your point is? And your question is?

Arkengarthdale · 14/06/2018 22:41

No scrap that, sorry, don't answer. Apologies

ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:42

OK - long story short, and I know this may be unpopular with some here - I fundamentally don't believe that women have a greater right to parent than committed, loving dads, but I feel that society and the legal system as it stands has an element of bias created from the past and poor behaviours of men and the one sacrosanct domain women always did have, at least, being parenthood. All I see at the moment, all I've been told by people, by the justice system, by mediators, by legal advice, all tell me that I am basically screwed, no matter how good a dad I have strived to be. I don't think this can be right in a society that supposedly seeks equality and no sexism.

OP posts:
ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:43

And look, clearly if it was too long for you to read, don't worry about it. I'm genuinely interested in an in-depth discussion about this kind of thing, and if that's not for you, that's fine :)

OP posts:
FaFoutis · 14/06/2018 22:43

What is your actual problem?

FaFoutis · 14/06/2018 22:45

Do you mean you are not seeing your children as much as you would like and you think that is due to sexism?

ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:45

Wow. I didn't expect this level of negativity already. I was kind of assuming this was a progressive, reasonable community. I don't know why people post if they only have thing like this to say! Confused

OP posts:
ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:46

FaFoutis - I think it is due to the really selfish, nasty actions of the mother, and am disappointed that the current system seems to essentially disempower me from doing anything about it, even though it's clear, I believe, that the situation is pretty damn poor.

OP posts:
ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:48

We had agreed 50:50, you see, during splitting up. I had every reason to believe that would simply be the case - yet when the poo hit the wall, for no reason, I was simply refused this. There are lots of other factors, but I was also told things like it was because of breastfeeding - reasonable, but not when you learn that she stopped at 5 months and didn't tell you, and nothing changed anyway - then she agreed to mediation but then moved, without discussion, moved away to move in with some new guy and tried to impose the old 'every other weekend' thing. Prior to this I had seen my little one far more than this, and she knows very well that there's no advantage to him moving away - only to her.

OP posts:
ThisMustBeMyDream · 14/06/2018 22:48

I've spent the last year watching my partner, and a male friend go through family courts.

What it has done has left me nothing but shocked and appalled at how these cases are handled.

I'm a mother. I've also been a child of parents who divorced.

I've witnessed a lot over the years. And all of it has left me disillusioned over just how biased family court is.

They claim to put the welfare of children first. They don't. I've never once seen the interests of the child truly put first.

Ardant · 14/06/2018 22:50

It's not negativity. I've read and re read it, I don't know what you're saying!

Can you sum up your question/argument?

ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:52

Thanks for saying this. This is exactly how I feel. My ex claims, against all the evidence, to be doing this as it's in his interest - but she's moved him away from all of both our families, away from me, with whom, he really had an exceptionally close relationship, and his older brother. I have been nothing but an attentive dad and spent all my time either with my kids or working to fill the financial void I've been left with, while she has been leaving our boy with her parents (I know, not an issue as such, but...) to develop a new relationship in what can only be [maybe] 8 months or so at most to the point of moving in with some guy, with our child!

OP posts:
ThisMustBeMyDream · 14/06/2018 22:54

When I used to post as a single mum, who had been through a traumatic separation, while pregnant and recently married, I had a lot of empathetic responses. So much support...

The minute I found a new partner who happened to have a child, I became a witch on here.

Go figure.

FaFoutis · 14/06/2018 22:57

That's awful for you, I have seen my own father go through the same thing and understood it much more as I had my own children.
Moving away from a caring father is not in the child's interests.

ca101 · 14/06/2018 22:58

Ardant - I'll try. Basically I DO think there is bias, and it's awful when you are a dad who does his very best and always has done, and wasn't abusive etc. It just feels that my ex is allowed to get away with being totally selfish, rash and frankly cruel and not doing the best thing for our child, and is being allowed to basically say "I've moved, tough" without much chance for me to do anything about it. It hurts like hell, to be honest, and it's worse because I can't find much faith in the justice system. It feels like she is assumed to be the main parent no matter what, even though I'm the one who is a more experienced parent (previous relationship). The bottom line, Ardant - I think the whole of society and the mechanisms within it are geared up towards the mum. There have been some good reasons for this, but for people like me, it just seems like an awful stab in the back, and not a reflection of justice for my children or myself. I don't see how a mum can feel entitled to reject my time as a parent - that most precious of resources - because she's rather feel like the main parent and take the money. I use to be cynical about dads who said that sort of thing too, but trust me, if you knew it all, it's amazing how she seems only to care about money, and dseems to be excluding me in order to maximise her financial claims and time over my time or indeed my well-being. I went down to 3 days a week at work to support her at home; we split up before it came into play - so her small contribution to the flat included, I found myself £900 a month worse off. That's not easy tocope with, but I bought all my kids stuff, always - and yet she still goes to CMS to simply get the maximum she can, despite knowing all this. CMS just say "well don't buy thems tuff then" - by proxy making me seem secondary, a less caring parent. The whole thing is awful.

OP posts:
ca101 · 14/06/2018 23:03

TMBMD, yeah, I guess that's the internet for you! I wish people could be objective.

And yeah, FaFoutis. I honestly wish I could simply condense all of it into a capsule because the whole story is just so awful. I've not seen my little one for 11 days now, and it breaks my heart, as much as any mums, because I never went more than 5 before - and even that was never by my agreement. From the moment we split up I had him plenty of overnights all the time, full weekends, Tuesday to Wednesday for 30 hours, not like some dads.. and again, this was still not the time we'd always agreed to. I was still having to work to pay my mortghage and try to make this £900 deficit work while she lived with her mum and dad, getting money from me still. Brilliant. I didn't invest in other reltationships or fob him off on my parents like she has. If anything, I felt we may even have had a closer bond as a result. It doesn't prove anything too much, but it's indicative that when I picked him up (it was always me travelling), he'd go crazy to see me, but he'd always cry when he went back, even to his mum. If nothing else, I'm sure we had as strong a bond, that she is now deliberately disrupting by moving somewhere inaccessible with some new dad who clearly she wants to be a proxy father, though she's only known him a matter of months. She's even witheld my son before, accusing me of letting someone smoke cannabis around him or doing it myself - if you knew me, you;d be aware this is the biggest joke ever, and it's her who has a recent history of cocaine abuse!

Anyway, I just go on, but I'm sorry. I'm just heartbroken, and I actually feel an almost physical pain in my chest. It's like nothing else.

OP posts:
AntiqueSinger · 14/06/2018 23:08

I do think that at one time it was just assumed that mothers were better overall at parenting than fathers: In the past for e.g. many women stayed home raising the children for the majority of the time and men earned the crust and may have had far less interaction with them, so in the past courts would have been more likely to award full custody to the mother and fathers rights would perhaps be given far less priority. Todays court system is perhaps a legacy of that.

Of course it is also worth remembering that the notion of fathers being equally involved in the emotional upbringing of childen (as opposed to just providing or guiding, or being the last port of authority) is relatively new. It is only in the last what? 20 years or so, that one regularly sees fathers baby wearing, pushing prams, reading bedtime stories and sharing child care responsibilities while mum works. Or even if she doesn't work. (not saying these things never happened before but they are more common now) But for many mothers (go check out the relationships forum) this still doesn't happen, so again any bias of the courts reflect this to an extent.

That said, having been a lone parent, I strongly agree that fathers play an essential role in their childrens lives, and should never be cut out excepting valid reasons that would result in harm to the children.

Worth also remembering that the legal system is as far as I am aware (I have no stats) dominated by men. Meaning it is an expression of the patriarchy.

Lastly, I thought laws were brought in to suggest that that deliberate alienation of a parent by any party was illegal or something. Sorry its late and I may not be expressing myself correctly!

Oswin · 14/06/2018 23:11

How old is your child? How long have you been in court?
Are you saying you think shes wrong for claiming maitenance?

Ardant · 14/06/2018 23:14

So "why do courts give mums custody and why do I have to pay maintenance".

Have you talked to a lawyer about her changing custody arrangements on you, withholding time, and using drugs?

ca101 · 14/06/2018 23:15

Hey Antique - no, 100% - I totaly agree that people like me are, as it were, paying for the sins of our fathers! Yet the law has a social obligation, as I see it, to change with social change, and it's incredibly tough to want to, to do everything right, and still end up being exlcuded fromthe role that is reasonable and fair. II suppose I feel that both work and childcare should fundamentally be shared if both parents want that involvement. Where that isn't the case, it's different, but yup. I'd LOVE to be a stay at home dad! But actually I think we should BOTH work and BOTH play a full role in the child's life, in all ways - not be secondary by default. What other role modelling is that to show children, particularly, in my case, two boys? I WANT them to see men caring and women working, both doing both. It's hard to feel like I'm not being reasonable, or that we should meet in the middle, given that all I ask for is parity and what was agreed to.

I in no way defend the patriarchy. I realise all of the historical social context. But again -I just don't think it should be seen as an excuse at all. These people should get with modernity or be shipped out.

And yes - I genuinely think it is alienation by proxy. She may pretend she's moved for other reasons, but everything says not. She's moved simply to be with this guy, away from everything else in his life, directly harming our relationship, his and his brother's relationship, and his and his family's. Even HER family is right near me! So it begs the question - why didn't her new guy move here rather than the other way around? Even his family isn't from where he is, and he didn't have a house there. They are renting a new place together. So - you can see why it leaves me feeling kind of bad.

The hard bit is that I feel IF I had been cynical in the first place and just gone straight to court, rather than believing she was someone she'd presented herself as - someone who believed in equality, in dads' places, had integrity - I think the courts woudl've gone 50:50 in our case. I really do. Yet because I believed in all that, she moved without any discussion, meaning that the courts almost certainly won't act in that way now.

OP posts:
ThisMustBeMyDream · 14/06/2018 23:17

Ardant, those facts make no real difference if it's the main caregiver doing those things. They only appear to be relevant when it is the none resident parent.

ca101 · 14/06/2018 23:23

Oswin - I believe in supporting my children, but not in a way that she can just dictate the means by which that takes place. I think morally she is wrong to claim the maximum maintenance when she knows my financial position is parlous and has been directly impacted upon by our separation. There seems to be no reason in her approach whatsoever. As I said, I was £900 down a month after we split up, because I'd already agreed a 3 day contract to support her at home more (and I'm a teacher, so it's not that simple to 'just leave', and actually - when I was seeing my little one on the days I went down - why should I choose work over seeing my child in order to fund her to see him instead of me!? Where's the justice there?) when she had no bills or other expenses living at her parents, and still she didn't even try to get a family agreement. She also knows that I have a full set of things for my children - I'd need nothing from her if she dropped dead. Car seats, cots, all of it. I've bought all of it. So of course, I have to question why she thinks it's valid when I clearly DO already support my children financially - and she also expects this money whilst also shouting at me if I lose one of 'her' socks. It's our child's sock, for goodness sake!

Ardant - basically, yes, in this day and age, with a dad like me, why do mums seem so often to get custody or preference when there isn't sound bassi, in my view... and again, not maintenance as such - but it does seem very much like she is allowed to dictate that, and also simply choose for me to see him less and get more money as a result. I don't think she should be able to say "oh, you want to be a proper dad? No thanks, for me personally I'd rather have your money than your time" - forgetting, again, that it's not about her, but him. What's the point in impoverishing me while she can afford holidays and so on, somehow, while I sometimes go without food to feed my kids?

OP posts:
Kingsclerelass · 15/06/2018 03:31

Op, it’s hard for the courts or even couples by themselves to get the balance right after a split. But arrangements can be adjusted and refined to make things better. I’ve spent six years biting my tongue & not getting cross with my ex, and we’ve managed to reach a situation that works for both.
Seen from the other side, your ex may have been living with her parents to save the deposit for a home for her and dcs, not through choice. Surely that is a sensible thing to do. And how she manages her finances is her affair, as long as dcs are properly provided for.
She has a right to move and rebuild her life. Equally you can move to be near your children.
You have the freedom to work full time now, which will take away the financial constraints. As a teacher perhaps you could suggest having your dcs for longer periods in the school holidays and allowing her adult time with her new partner. Make it a benefit to both.

Whatever your feelings, the fact is that you and your ex have separated and you have to find a way to share parenting for the next 20 years. That’s a lot easier to achieve if you can not bear a grudge over every £ or lost sock, I know it takes effort o both sides but You’re in this for the long haul so take a deep breath and let the more minor stuff go.

Most importantly your dcs will be much happier if their parents aren’t at each other’s throats.

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