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Help - Child Arrangement Order

12 replies

Anxious2772 · 05/06/2018 21:31

My ex and I have had an informal arrangement over our child for some time, recently I've had to seek advice from a solicitor as the divorce process has started and the solicitor advised that the current child arrangements are disruptive and should be reconsidered.

As such I told my ex that rather than pick the child up at 7pm on a Friday as per previous arrangements he could pick up after swimming on Saturday morning because picking her up that late (she is 5) isn't acceptable really.

Today he threatend that if I don't agree to maintain the original (informal) agreement that his solicitor will file for an interim child arrangement order on an urgent basis on Thursday which will enforce the original (informal) arrangement.

Can he really do this? Everything I read says urgent is for welfare or abduction issues only and any CAO must legally be preceeded by mediation (MAIM)

Any advise welcome.

Thanks!!

OP posts:
octobersunshine · 05/06/2018 22:10

From my understanding, he would have to go through mediation to demonstrate it has been considered prior to court. If you were to refuse, or if mediation was deemed to be an appropriate means of resolution, a mediator could sign off on the court papers.

I don't know whether an urgent application would succeed, given that it seems to be an issue that could be discussed and resolved through mediation.

If it is disruptive to your daughter, it's worth arguing that at mediation, if that's the avenue he wants to pursue, and then again at court if that does materialise.

The court's interest is in your daughter, not what he demands to suit his arrangements. Good luck.

Anxious2772 · 05/06/2018 23:12

Thank you. I've posted this on a couple of pages and only been trolled for being unreasonable, vindictive, calculating etc. All I want is what is best for my daughter and only wanted to know if he'd be successful with an urgent application. I've tried to discuss things amicably but he refuses. Obviously the last thing I want is to go through court proceedings but I fear if I just back down on this his will bully me on everything to do with our financial separation too and my daughter will suffer as a result.

OP posts:
SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad · 06/06/2018 00:05

It is very unusual that a solicitor would advise you to change an arrangement that is already established and working. It isn't a solicitor's role to tell you what's right for your daughter - it's their job to advise you on legalities, and represent you to secure the outcome that you are seeking. So, I do wonder what prompted the decision to reduce his overnight contact - particularly since you were speaking to the solicitor about divorce (presumably financial) issues rather than child arrangements. I will ask - is this definitely nothing to do with maintenance?

You say that it is disruptive to your daughter for him to collect her on the Friday, but it isn't clear what you really mean by this. A court is going to be balancing the different needs and perspectives here to determine what is best for your daughter. How long is the journey to his home once he has collected her? What is the impact of a 7pm collection? Could that collection be done any earlier, or are there other ways to address the issues you're worried about without undermining your daughter's relationship with her dad by reducing their time together?

It is worth putting yourself in his shoes (and - crucially - those of your daughter) for a moment. You are trying to take away one of their nights together, as well as his chance to get her up, have breakfast, take her swimming etc on the Saturday morning. That's a pretty big deal, that reduces their quality time together. Doing so would need a pretty compelling reason. So, before this gets dragged through a court, I would encourage you to reflect on why you are doing this, and whether the disruption you are concerned about definitely outweighs the benefit to your daughter of this quality time with her father.

If you believe that it does, and you're doing this for the right reasons, then yes - it will probably have to go to mediation first (but see below for factors that may persuade a judge to take a different view).

If it does, then at mediation, you will both be expected to constructively look for compromises. For him, that would mean finding ways (such as an earlier collection) to address the disruption that you're worried about. For you, it will mean trying to find solutions that maintain the established relationship between father and child.

If either of you is unwilling to do that, it will move very quickly to court - particularly as you have arbitrarily imposed a change without consultation.

The court probably won't look favourably on your doing that - both parents are equal in the eyes of the law, and constructive co-parenting is about working together when you have worries about how things are affecting your child, rather than one parent assuming they can arbitrarily reduce the time that the child has with the other parent. That's not constructive, and it's not co-parenting. Neither parent 'out-ranks' the other. To be perfectly honest, if I were in your ex's shoes, then I'd be pushing for a hearing as rapidly as possible too.

All of which is a very long-winded way of suggesting that you need to try and figure this out by talking with the dad - not by imposing what you want. If you can't or won't do that, then he is within his rights to push for an urgent hearing. It will then be for a judge to decide whether to grant that on the basis that you are unlikely to engage constructively with mediation and the action you have taken is already impacting the child's relationship with a parent, or to insist that you go through mediation first. Either way, if this ends up before a judge either before or after mediation, you will need a compelling argument as to why the disruption to your daughter is so pronounced as to merit reducing the time that she spends with her dad.

MrsBertBibby · 06/06/2018 00:13

In your other thread you explained he gets her to his on the Friday in time for her bed. So where is the disruption? And why should he miss out on waking up with his daughter, and she with him?

He may or may not get an urgent hearing. That's hardly the important issue, surely? He'll get a hearing, sooner or later.

NorthernSpirit · 06/06/2018 06:09

You have an arrangement and now you want to change it. I can understand why the dad is upset (and feels desperate). Can you understand that?

You’ve got a divorce solicitor who has told you the child arrangements are disruptive. Who are they to decide? That’s not their place.

What’s best for your daughter? Your daughter has this arrangement to see her dad and now you want to change it. Sounds unreasonable on your part to me.

Put yourself in his shoes - he has limited time with his daugher and now you want to change it and limit it even more. Can you imagine how that feels? How hard it is to be told / it dictated when you can see your own child?

The arrangement was fine before, but now you’ve decided it isn’t. If this does go to court you’ll be asked to explain yourself. Judges rarely reduce contact.

Yes, he could get an interim arrangement order, and no you don’t have to go through mediation first - he can tick a box to say it’s bypassed (or along those lines). My OH asked his EW for it and she refused so it was a box ticking exercise on the form.

Think carefully about what’s best for the child.

Wallywobbles · 06/06/2018 06:49

As I posted on your other thread. Conflict is in the solicitors interest. Not yours and not your child's. The judge in my divorce was the one that imposed 7pm on pick up and drop off for my then 2&3 yo.

Obviously not what you want to hear but YABU.

Coolaschmoola · 06/06/2018 06:54

How is it 'disruptive'?

fontofnoknowledge · 06/06/2018 07:35

Trolling and accusing you of vindictiveness is horrible and I hope you aren't put off your first foray on MN. It's not always like this. Some people don't have much in their lives and get their kicks from behaving appallingly on line - in a way they wouldn't consider in real life.

Some topics are better than others. You might try 'legal' for matters related to family law proceedings. There are some great clear speaking family lawyers and people who have been through the family court system . They can give you appropriate advice based on legal knowledge and first hand experience of the self-representation route. (Very common since the removal of legal aid in all but some DV cases.

In your particular case I think this all really boils down to the word 'disruptive'. It feels very strange for an arrangement you were happy to agree to and has been in place for a while now, to be described as 'disruptive' by a third party. Especially one that is dealing with the divorce.

Could this be some 'tactic' that the divorce lawyer thinks will secure you a better deal ? Are you aware that this is even a thing ?
If he has your child 'nearly 50% of the time, the issue of child support will often become contentious - with both parties expected to care for their children with their own income on their own time with your child.

Has your lawyer explained this ? Does your ex pay any maintenance at the moment ? Do you pay him any ?
I suspect that this issue has everything to do with this rather than perceived 'disruption '.
I also accept that you may not have had this explained to you.

I think he has every chance of being heard early but as MrsBert said earlier- it's really a mute point. He WILL be heard sooner or later. (and later isn't that much later depending where you live).

The issue really is how can your child's best interests be best served ? To me the obvious question is to look at the perceived disruption vs the benefit to child being with the parent and how to make it work rather than how to make it stop.

7 pm on a Friday does not in the surface appear difficult. The next day is not a school day so a slightly later night would seem entirely reasonable.
Is the swimming on Saturday an issue. Is she too tired for it ? If this is the case then stop the swimming! It's not essential for a 5 yr old especially one that's been in school all week. If she likes swimming then it's something dad can do with her at the weekend. For fun. A swimming lesson for a 5yr old should not (and will not - in a Judges eyes) trump time with a parent.
There is your solution. (If this IS about your daughters welfare) but as I said , it MAY be a manipulation that the lawyer is trying in order to get you a better 'deal'.

wannabestressfree · 06/06/2018 07:47

Seven is not late for a five year old and from an outsiders perspective it seems like you want him to lose another night with his daughter. Why can he not take her to swimming? Can you not share it eow? I disagree that from the outset it's disruptive- it's an established routine that works for you both. I can understand his annoyance.

Phillipa12 · 06/06/2018 08:14

My ex collects our dc age 9/4 and 2 eow on a friday night at 6.30pm, its then a 2hr drive to his house (we meet halfway!). 6.30pm is the little twos bedtime, this collection has been going on for 2 years now, it does not really affect the boys. Am afraid i can see no wrong in a 7pm collection for a 5 year old, esp since its on a friday night. IMO i would save your battles for something else, this really is a non issue!

MrsBertBibby · 06/06/2018 08:38

I don't know where else you posted, but your thread in Legal wasn't trolled.

Your solicitor, if what you say is true, is a menace.

You are heading into trouble if you carry on this tack.

EscapistTendencies · 06/06/2018 08:42

Whether or not it's reasonable depends on overall contact I think. If he collects her every Friday and has all weekend every weekend then no I don't think that's fair as presumably you also work in the week, if on the other hand she is back with you sat evening then I would say it's fine.

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