Poverty

[Love51]

There has been quite a bit on the news lately about how families are living in poverty and having to use food banks. On the regional TV news there was a segment on lone parent families, including where the parent worked, being in dire straits.
I've often wondered why governments have never enforced payment of child maintenance by the nrp. To my eyes it seems like a vote winner. It wouldn't involve the government giving families money, as the nrp would be paying, yet could move thousands of children out of poverty. Obviously if the lone parent doesn't disclose who the other parent is, or probably if the nrp lives abroad it would be unworkable, but surely in most cases it would help children. So, what am I missing? If payment was enforced, what would be the downside?

How would that work? My ex gets cash in hand to avoid Cms so how would they force him? It's annoying because I couldn't afford to buy my son a new coat the other day (he lost one in school and the replacement he had the size broke.) while my ex doesn't pay a penny. But don't see what they could do in those circumstances if he isn't working or claiming benefits.

Thank you for your responses.
Yes I vote I've not lobbied about this,and I'm trying to understand what I would be asking for exactly, and how it would work. The issue pretty raised was that if he isn't working (officially) or claiming benefits there is nothing to take a maintenance payment from. So maybe every nrp should be required to make a base rate payment, maybe equivalent to what they'd pay if on JSA. The government can't believe he subsist on thin air? If he's living off savings or a benefactor he still ought to provide for his child. I believe that as a nation we need to get angry and active about the fact that we have children living in poverty and in many cases, their parent is choosing to let that happen. If the resident parent was living a wealthy lifestyle while the kids went without, it would be neglect, I don't see why it is different because the parent doesn't live under the same roof, and someone else (res parent) will go without so the child doesn't have to.
So, penalty for non payment... Fines? Imprisonment? Removal of driving license? Put them in the stocks? What do other countries do and does it work? I know some states in USA remove driving licence but I think that's in the states where everyone has one. We don't have precedent for that here (preferable to prison to me as they can't work in prison!)

To OP

Gingerbread had a campaign on this subject and it has been raised by MN a few times, but does not seem to make any difference. The new CMS rules are even less favourable than the previous CSA in my view. Assets are no longer taken into account when calculating maintenance. Income that is not Taxable seems to be ignored (eg ISA's, Foreign earnings).

Another issue is self employed and those working through their own Ltd Companies. Neither CSA not CMS seem to understand how to assess such persons and NRP often end up paying nothing or 7 pounds per week.

My ex new how to play the system. Set up as Ltd Company knowing that CMS only take basic salary into account and ignore dividends. When I got round to applying for a variation to include Dividends my ex had moved overseas and become Non-Resident for UK Taxes. Now I get 7 pounds per week based on UK rental income.

I agree that something needs doing but how much in general do you think maintenance payments are? Usually a pittance anyway.

I was reading on here a while ago about the CM system in a Scandinavian country. I can’t remember which one but the gist was that if a parent (usually a father) avoids or refuses to pay CM, the government pays it to the resident parent instead. So the resident parent gets their maintenance and the parent refusing to pay then has a debt to the government. And governments are usually pretty efficient at collecting debts from people who owe them. I thought it was a great idea. Unfortunately, I highly doubt anything like it will ever come in here for reasons already detailed by other posters.

Vitalogy I imagine they vary wildly. But if a family can't afford heating, and the 'pittance' means they can, then I want them to receive it.
I will look into the gingerbread campaign. Now i think about it, it would have been a good place to look first!
It bothers my brain that there is a really easy way to reduce child poverty, that wouldn't lose any votes because the taxpayer isn't paying, that is fair because the person being asked to pay is the child's parent, that has wider societal benefit because it isn't only the children in poverty who will benefit, it's also the ones who can afford food and heating but not the 'extras', and yet it isn't happening. Paying for a child you don't live with is practically voluntary at the moment. I'm off to check out the gingerbread campaign!

Apparently NRP's paying nil is common. Even if someone was on benefits or JSA they would be required to pay something.

The removal of assets and lifestyle Variations under CMS has made it even more easy for NRP to get away with paying very little.

A case last year (which I think is in the Gingerbread Report) ruled by one of the leading Family Law judges resulted in an NRP paying 7 pounds per week on basis that his only income was state pension. That NRP had an estimated 5 Million in assets could not be included in the assessment as they did not produce an income. The Judge commented that removal of the assets Variation was clearly wrong in this case, but he was bound by the Law.

Lifestyle is another Variation that was removed. This allows cash in hand self employed to declare tiny earnings even though they own property, car, take holidays, etc.

But if a family can't afford heating, and the 'pittance' means they can, then I want them to receive it. Luckily I managed fine but the £30 maintenance a week I received wasn't exactly an equal amount for paying towards a child's needs. Not only does the enforcement need looking at, the amounts too. I know someone where the father paid £5 a week, wouldn't even pay for heat!

My ex doesn't drive so wouldn't have a license to take of him, I think more people drive in America than here. He rents out rooms in his house and that's how he gets money but I was told Cms can't do anything about that as like I said it's all cash in hand and he doesn't need to work.

To PrettyLittleThing

If your Ex is letting out rooms does he not have to be a registered Landlord? Maybe there is a way to determine how much rent he receives?

Biix, I'm Danish, and I can confirm that the system works like you describe it. It also works indirectly as non-resident parents usually don't even try to not pay CM, as they know that they can't get away with it. So it's not an expensive system for the government.

I am recently separated, and I have become very aware that I only get CM because I am on good terms with my STBXH. If he didn't want to pay, it wouldn't be hard for him.

no sadly I've already looked into it all and legally he's allowed to do it.

It’s a very tough issue - my sister’s ex moved in with another partner off the radar - didn’t register at the address so impossible to establish where he was, legally and his earnings were nothing so hardly a prize catch.

How many of these non paint NRPs would be paying much even if caught? Probably the costs of enforcing maintenace for the state outweigh the benefits

So, if we were petitioning, would these be the right things to ask for?
A minimum payment regardless of income.
Assets over a certain amount to be taken into account if no income is available to be assessed (how much would this amount be? Or could it be any amount bar the nrp's home?)
Unearned income such as rental income, dividends etc to be included in the assessment.
The money to be paid via the government so if the nrp doesn't pay, they are defaulting to the government.

And this is my own thought, but may have issues
Nrp to pay maintenance PLUS 50% of the rp's childcare bill. Because most maintenance doesn't touch the sides of the cost of childcare for those that need it. Works for the government too as single parents won't have to give up work because they can't afford to work.

Thing is, if the father is on minimum wage, you can't get blood from a stone. This is why tax credits are the lifeline, even with maintenance.

I’ll probably get flamed for this, but.....

What if the mother refuses to work or contribute?

My OH pays way over the CMS stated amount - pays the RP over £8k a year for 2 children. Also pays for school trips, clubs, clothes etc on top.

The mother until now has just started working (kids are 9 & 12). Earns less than £10k a year on 16 hours. Refuses to work more as she says all mothers who work are bad mothers.

So what if the mother won’t financially contribute her bit? I get child care and RP responsibilities but isn’t it fair that both parents do their bit?

The mother not working does not absolve the father of his legal and moral obligation to provide for his children, just as the mother being a millionaire would not absolve him.

Also, if the children live with her, she contributes a fair bit more than £8k a year. Keeping children fed, housed and warm isn't cheap.

Out of interest, what was the agreement re SAHM/WOHM when they planned the children?

@Frequency - agree totalky that the mother not working does not absolve the father of his responsibility.

My OH pays over £8k a year (doesn’t begrudge it at all and is trying to do all that he can).

The mother earns less than £10k a year herself and receives £18k in benefits (paid for by hardworking tax payers). Is it fair that the mother refuses to support herself any more? The dad does what he can, but according to the mum it isn’t enough.

When they had kids the agreement was that the wife would go back to work when the kids went to primary school. The kids were 12 & 9 and she still refused. She was ordered by a judge to get a job and start providing for herself and the children.

To PrettyLittleThing

If your Ex renting out rooms is all legal then what he receives in rent should be traceable through HMRC Tax Returns?

To Love51

Rental income and dividends income (and any other unearned income) can be included in the Child Maintenance Calculation, but under the present CMS system the RP has to specifically request a Variation. CMS for some reason do not take into account such income even when listed on the NRP's HMRC Tax Return.

Division of assets should have been finalised during the divorce/separation settlement. So for RP to get a second bite at the assets the NRP was left with after settlement might be considered unfair?

To Northern Spirit

Fathers are required to support their children whether mother is working or not. CM is based on a % of NRP income. What the Mother earns is not included. There was a ruling in 2015 which effectively said that Mothers whose children are over 7 should obtain work. However, that related more to Spousal Maintenance rather than Child Maintenance.

NorthernSpirit Mother is contributing, she's working, maybe not enough in your eyes but working all the same. The lions share responsibility for the children too. Don't underestimate the pressure of this when you have no other emotional support.

Plus, it'll make no difference to what your OH has to contribute anyway. She'll be able to be there more for when the children are sick etc ,easier than if she were working full time, when there is no other back up it's crucial and I wouldn't begrudge it one bit.

@Tamatave2000 & @Vitalogy - totally agree fathers should support their children and it has nothing to do what the mother earns.

My bug bear is the constant vitriolic emails from the EW telling my OH that his ‘pathetic contribution’ won’t keep her or the children in the lifestyle she wants to maintain. A lifestyle that includes a 3 bedroom, 3 bathroom detached house on a private gated development that my OH was expected to pay for. The reality is that when relationships break down we all need to make compromises.

My point is if the mother wants to keep that lifestyle then she needs to get off her backside and start earning more. Not keep coming after the father for more. No one owes us a living.

totally agree fathers

If she does get a fulltime job is your DH going to pay 50% of the childcare costs for the 9yo and take 50% of the days off needed for sick children, medical appointments and school commitments (parents 'evenings' that start at 3:30pm and end at 5pm) bring your parent to school day, family week, school performances etc)?