Dilemma! What do I say to him? (sorry it's a bit long...)

[butterflywings]

My XP & I always had a very on/off relationship, so when I got PG he decided that he didn't want to stick around. He said, after DD was born, that he really wanted to see her. He came to see her 3 times in all over the next 6mths & we didn't see him again.
XP got in contact again last Nov & I told him that I didn't want DD to know who he was if he was going to disappear after a few months. He swore to me that he would never do that. At the end of Feb, I started letting XP & DD go out on their own around 3 times per week. He also babysits once a month. But, there are some things that I'm not happy with:
1. He's sometimes 20mins late collecting DD & sometimes texts me 20mins after he's supposed to collect DD saying that he can't make it. And he never knows when they'll back.
2. Calls me lazy 'cause I'm a SAHM in front of DD & picks at everything I say. DD is picking up on it & she now calls me lazy
3. Doesn't put reins on DD when in buggy. I told him that he really ought to & he told me that he'd gone over a kerb with her once & she fell out, hitting her head! He still brings her back without the reins on...
4. Encourages DD to go wrong way up slide. Sounds fussy, I know, but she could have an accident and he's undoing things I've taught her.
5. Doesn't listen to me when I try to offer him advice about DD (see 2 & 3)
6. Not happy with them seeing his friends. Most of his friends have criminal records (theft, car robbery, being drunk and disorderly, drugs & violence).
7. Sulks if I forget to contact him. I once didn't contact him for a week 'cause it was my dad's b-day, so he started a row with me over MySpace (sending public messages, would you believe?!) saying he was really p%£$ed off with me & accused me of trying to stop him seeing DD. When I said that it wasn't appropriate to have a row over the 'net, he denied that he was.
8. His new DP... I'm really angry that he didn't ask me if he could introduce them, esp. since she's the person he left me for He hasn't even got the guts to tell me that he has a new DP - I had to find out from his family. DD came back with a daisy-chain the other day & he said that he'd made it for her. I later found out that his DP had made it. God knows why he couldn't just tell me she'd made it - did he think I was going to hire a hit-man to kill her just 'cause she made DD a daisy-chain?! Makes me uneasy though... Are they playing happy-families together with my DD??
He's babysitting this Friday night & I want to speak to him about it when I get back (it's the only chance I'll get to do it when DD isn't around). The thing is, I'm really rubbish at confrontations & I don't know where to begin. I want to let him know that he can't carry on like this but I don't want him to say that I'm a "won't-let-father-see-his-kids-just-'cause-I-feel-like-it" mother (see 7)
I would be really grateful if anyone has any advice on this kind of situation because I'm really dreading it!
Thanks for reading such a long message, by the way

Hmmmm... I've had some conflicting advice here...
But I think I've decided what to do.

I'm going to sit down with him and explain that I think some of his behaviour is unacceptable. I shall remind him that I have spoken to him about some of these issues separately and he's not paid any attention so far.
Then I shall tell him exactly what I think is wrong and what he can do to make it right. If he doesn't like it, then I shall remind him that I am the sole carer and I have done a damn good job bringing DD up on my own for the last 3 years so I know her better than anyone.
If he wants to take any action, then he is quite welcome to (but I hope it won't come to that!).

I know this sounds patronising to him, but if I don't tell him exactly what is wrong, he'll have the excuse that I didn't fully explain everything to him. For example, if I said, "I would prefer it if you didn't call me lazy in front of DD," he might call me stupid and then try to tell me that I didn't say he couldn't call me stupid
He plays dumb, but in fact, he's really smart when it comes to outwitting someone.

Lwatkins - I hope everything's going ok with you and be sure to let me know how you're doing in your last few weeks! I'm very excited for you!

I will be curious to see what happens. Unfortunately, it seems that LWatkins method has not been terribly successful as according to her, her dd's father has not been in touch for months. Although I obviously don't know the particular cirmcumstances, it does sound like she is very angry and bitter and perhaps that has driven him away. In her opinion that is the best thing for her child. I have seen how awful the effect has been on my stepchildren to have their father driven away by their mother. In my opinion, that's not the best outcome for the child. Are you sure that insisting that your ex do things your way, isn't going to drive him away and are you sure that the risk of that is one that you are willing to take and that that is what you want for your dd? Only you can know ultimately what is best for your child, but I do think it's important to understand what the possible consequences are.

No your right SA you don't know my particular circumstances and I actually find what you've said in your post about me quite offensive. So I'll correct you.

I am not bitter and angry toward my ex, I pity his immaturity if anything. The situation between us is a complicated one that I don't expect you to understand and I don't feel like I should spend time explaining it in defence. The fact of the matter is that my baby isn't here yet and won't be real to my ex partner until she is born. I think the minute he see's her he'll fall head over heals in love with his daughter and I hope that they have a good relationship. I have not driven him away from his child in any way shape or form, we have driven away from each other however which in all honesty has probably been for the best the way things were. And to be honest until the baby is here I doubt I will hear from him because we don't really get along. I will make the effort to be civil towards him always for my baby, but I don't have to like him. And I don't see why him being a parent should fall onto my shoulders to sort out. If he wants to be a dad to his child he will be, but that's up to him and him alone. I will be the sole parent however, and I would expect him to respect my parenting and the hard work I have put into raising my baby. If he can't conform to this then action will be taken to correct it.

With regards to butterfly's situation, I think she does need to lay down the rules with her ex. I think that it must be very confusing to such a young child to have conflicting rules and standards set. It's like bad manners. If you spend years teaching your children to say please and thank you and not to swear etc, but the other parent doesn't enforce the same rules all your going to get is a confused child saying 'but daddy says I don't have too'. Then what do you do? Parents need to work as a team bringing up their children whether they are still together or not, there has to be some understanding and grounding for the child's sake.

SA I think you said in one of your earlier posts that men are 'dumb' and have the mental age of a 12 year old. Sorry but should this be applied to every man for every mistake he makes no matter how small or big? 'Sorry I didn't fasten the reins on dd's pushchair, she fell out, cracked her head open and has needed 15 stitches. All this happened in the middle of a busy road with heavy oncoming traffic.' Is a mothers response to this supposed to be 'Well that's ok, he's a man and he's dumb, isn't he silly......' Not quite so easy to pass of as as an immature 12 year old male when something serious happens to your child, and you then feel guilty for not correcting it when you had the chance.

Just because you feel your DH's ex has driven him away from his children, please don't tarnish me with the same brush.

Oh and butterfly, good luck sweetheart. I hope all goes well. Just remember to stay nice and calm, be polite etc but forcefull at the same time so that he takes you seriously. If you approach it in a particular way so that he feels your not attacking him but just going over a few things that you feel strongly about then I think it'll all be ok and hopefully things should improve. But don't go letting him walk all over you either. Keep us posted on how it goes

LWatkins, I'm sorry that you are having such a hard time with your ex. However, just like you don't think you should be tarnished with the same brush as my dh's ex, I don't think you should tarnish butterflywings' ex with the same brush as your ex.

In my experience children are not as easily confused as you think they are. Or at least not the children that I have had experience with (my 3 step children (18, 14, 13) and my 2 own children (4, 6)). Perhaps your dd will be different.

I'm sorry that you have misunderstood my reference to the "dumb" behavior of men. My intention was not to imply that men are generally dumb, but rather that their habits and behavior can sometimes seem dumb to women who have different habits and behavior.

Perhaps also, as an American, I have a different attitude towards and expectation of parenting than the English. Here in the USA, men have equal rights to women to parent their children. Shared custody is the norm here and it is rare for a woman to be granted sole or main custody of a child if the father also wishes to be equally involved and is not grossly incompetent. By the same token, here in the USA a father has equal say in the education and medical decisions of a child. In the UK, the concept of Parental Authority is a "right" that is given to men (often only if they demand it) and in my dh's experience is completely meaningless when put to the test.

Anyway, I was just hoping that butterflywings would hear both sides of the debate which I think she has at this point.

butterfly, where in worcs are you, i'll come and sort him out

Ok - I have just spoken to him and, I have to say, that it didn't go quite as planned. Then again, knowing my XP, it probably went really well, all things considered...

Anyways, I started off by asking when he wanted to see DD next and he said he'd check his rota when he got home at which point I said that I was not happy with his irregular visits with DD. We had decided on regular dates ages ago but he was always "busy" or something on 'his' days, so I'd have to change my plans to make things easier for him.
Over Easter, I admit that I was busy on one of his days and asked him if he would like an alternative & do the following day instead. He had said that it was ok, then he just didn't show up or return my calls. He actually had the balls to use that one occasion against the many times he stood DD up!!

He asked me if there was anything else that I was not happy with so I said that there was and explained about the fact that he lies to me about where they've been etc, and he said that it was all bulls**t So I said that I would not be doing this if I wasn't concerned and that I'd really like him to think about it for a moment.
Then I asked him about his 'new' DP.
He tried telling me that he hadn't lied about seeing her when with DD (blatently, he has since he has never told me they'd been to see her and I know that they have) and so he said that he never knew whether he was going to see his DP when he took DD out. I told him that I'd like it if he at least told me when he brought DD back... He said that DD always returns home to me happy and I argued that she sometimes doesn't want to go out with him and that makes me think DD doesn't want to see his DP. (Then he had the cheek to say that DD knows his DP very well!!)
He asked me what exaclty my problem was with his DP and I said that I'd like to know what's going on in DD's life - I don't want to be left in the dark, since I am the primary carer - I need to know. Especially as I have never met his DP so I don't know what kind of a person she is and what kind of role she has in DD's life.

He admitted that he was wrong in putting me down in front of DD and said that he would stop (although I don't know whether to believe him or not since every word, over the last 4yrs, that he has ever said to me was a lie) but I'm pretty pleased with his reaction to my concerns over that

I forgot everything else I was supposed to say to him as the 'little talk' I had planned had turned into a heated discussion. Luckily, I had put everything into writing for him (so that he couldn't say that I was asking ridiculous things of him later on, if he wanted to take things further).
So he asked me for the letter and he took it home with him, saying that he'd text me when he got back to tell me when he wanted DD in the week.
Have just received a text from him saying that I could 'f**k myself with my requests' followed by "as if I'm gonna listen"...
He didn't say whether or not he wanted to see DD. If I know him well enough, he probably just needs some time to cool off (or sulk) before I hear from him again.

LW - thank you for sticking up for me I can see SA's point, really I can. That's why I said that I didn't want to come across as a "won't-let-father-see-his-kids-just-'cause-I-feel-like-it" mother. And I tried really hard to not appear as if I'm attacking him, but calmly said that I was just concerned. Which is when he said that I was talking 'bllx'. He even said to me, "When I'm out with DD, you can't control what we do - you'll never know, so there's nothing you can do about it" !!!!
I tried so hard but he just tried to turn me into the enemy, when my best interests are actually in my DD

SA - I can see your point and I'm glad for both sides of the debate but I really think that, in the long term, I have done the right thing. Yes, he may be really cross with me now. But he will eventually calm down and see that I'm only putting my DD first and that I only want what's best for her.
As I said before, I never wanted for him to stop seeing her - I just wanted the two of them to retain a healthy relationship where we could all get along and see eye to eye. But he didn't listen to me when I gave him advice in the friendly why-don't-you-try-it-this-way approach. I knew being stern towards him might would blow up in my face, but I couldn't think of any other way to get through to him. Like you said, he's a male and seems not to listen to us women. That's why I wouldn't just bow down to him and let him do what the damn well he likes, because he did that with me and it wasn't a fun experience

NA - Thanks so much for your advice I'm in Malvern. Where are you? I just looked at your profile and I have never even heard of where you are!

unfortunately i'm the wrong side of worcs to you! it's kiddi side. are you still up? if you got msn we can chat on there if you like?

NA - I went to bed at around 6am so I just missed your post! I really could have done with getting all my anger out too

I just read my last post and it doesn't make much sense! I blame the hormones and the adrenalin

Basically, it didn't go as smooth as I would have liked because he ridiculed everything I said, which made me cross with him.. And he kept saying he couldn't do what I asked him - not because he really can't, but because he was being childish and he wanted to make things difficult.

Anyway, I shan't ramble on again...
My MSN is laylacore at hotmail dot com if you want a chat

why were you up at 5am - you should be resting!

Been lurking on this thread butterflywings, and admiring your patience.

Just to highlight something from one of your last posts -

"Have just received a text from him sayig that I could 'f**k myself with my requests' followed by "as if I'm gonna listen"... "

What an arsehole. I would say, keep this this text message as evidence of how unreasonable he is.

Your XP is the sort that gives the fathers rights movement a bad name. You have right on your side hun. Good luck with all this hun x

Thanks Janos

I was really beginning to doubt myself. My family have all said that I did the right thing but that's what families are supposed to do. That's why I came on here - to see what other people's opinions were.

He sent me a really nasty text yesterday morning, saying that I was going to have to explain to DD that he wasn't going to see her again because I'm 'pathetic' and 'lame'.
I'm hurt by the fact that he isn't going to try harder to see his DD whom, despite his many flaws, loves him very much. I didn't ask too much of him really, just to be a bit more considerate.
In a way though, I'm hoping he doesn't try to see her again (does that sound bad?!) as I know he won't play by the rules and he'll make it a very distressing time for everyone.

Maybe he just needs time to get his around it and then maybe he'll make an effort to do things properly...

And yes, I will be keeping all of his text messages from now on. Luckily for me, he doesn't like talking on the phone so everything he says will kept as a record on my mobile

*Get his head around it, I mean

Good for you being proactive and keeping his messages!

They won't show him in a good light at all (I would also keep a copy of this thread btw).

From everything you have said he just sounds like a apthetic, childish bully.

Your DD may be upset if she doesn't see him again (if it comes to that)but she will be fine as she obviously has a very loving and caring mum.

Don't feel bad about anything. You are doing your best in a very difficult situation

Thanks

I have just added this page to my favourites

Yeah, I'm sure DD will be fine if XP doesn't come to his senses - she's still young and kids are very resilient..

You're welcome! Honestly your DD is very young so she really won't remember any of this, so please don't worry about that side of things.

Honestly, I feel that if your XP really cared about being a good dad he would listen to your concerns and do his best to follow them; ie keeping her on reins etc(IYSWIM). Instead he's trying to goad you, making nasty comments (by text? Is he thick or what [hmmmm]!)

You are dealing it with it really well.

BTW how old is your XP, cus he sounds like an idiot teenager...?

(no offence to all non-idiot teenagers, of whom there are plenty)!

Haha! He's 25 but you wouldn't believe it - he does act like an idiot-teenager. He's a big fan of Spongebob Squarepants and has all the merchandise, for example

The thing is, I really thought he did care that much about DD. Because he'd get really upset when I'd tell him I was busy when he wanted to see her. (Obviously, I never lied to him about when I was free for him to have her but he'd text me in the evening, asking if he could have the next day.)

I'm just worried that I'm going to get a letter on my doorstep from his solicitor in the next few days (or however long it takes) because he's gone silent now... And I'm not prepared for that.
I should got to the CAB this week just in case.

Sounds to me like you should be prepared to explain to your dd why she is going to have to grow up without a father in her life.

Oh God, Butterfly - he sounds awful. Passive-aggressive almost, a bit like my Ds 1's dad - whom we no longer see at all.
Men like this can make you think it's all your fault, and that kinda lets them off the hook - i think often they wind you up, and wind you up, and do it some more, until you finally gently ask them to do a few things differently - then suddenly it's all YOUR fault that they can't possibly come and see their child any more.
This is exactly wht happened with us. I would have nothing but lies from Ds1's dad, he would be late etc. and never tell me where they were going, or give me a phone number or address...Ds was too little to talk so I felt helpless to know what was happening to him - add to this his father was an alcoholic and used to 'boast' to me about drinking and driving with his other DC's.
I eventually got pretty angry and asked for a few weeks break (after his ex wife rang me to tell me he was living with a new partner - I had no idea, DS was probably being taken there) so that I could recover from the immense stress he was putting me through, and become civil with him again.
He gave me the three weeks, and then refused to answer my calls - I kept ringing him on his rarely-answered mobile, still do, at first I was told that he would visit again when he was 'settled' - he's now remarried, I heard - I haven't heard from him in over a year.
I sometimes feel guilty that my anger drove him from Ds's life, but when I think back, it was all designed to look that way, when really he was being completely unreasonable.
Hard to trust your own judgment in these situations as you feel for and see your DC's suffering/requests for their absent parent.
But the absent parent is often only too happy not to be involved - as long as they don't look bad.
I'm not saying this is always true but IME it's something to bear in mind.
I wish you luck xx

Thank you FA.
Your XP does sound like mine. For instance, when XP and I were together, I would always have to decide where we were going on nights out (no matter how much I tried to persuade him to make a decision for once) so that, if he saw someone he didn't like or if things didn't go too well, he could blame me for such a crap night

So, yes, you are right - he just made me feel bad so that I would feel like it was all my fault, when it was him who was lying and being sneaky. Besides, I never said that he couldn't see DD - that was his decision but he made it look like it was mine.

I can't believe your XP though, actually boasting about drink driving with children in the car!

"Sounds to me like you should be prepared to explain to your dd why she is going to have to grow up without a father in her life."

If Butterflywings XP is irresponsible and abusive then perhaps her DD is better off not knowing him.

Actually, no perhaps about it.

However, time will tell.

Janos, personally I am appalled that you would consider Butterflywing's xp abusive from her description of him. You clearly have no idea what happens to a truly abused child. And when someone like Butterflywing's xp is being treated like an abuser it takes the resources and attention away from the real abuse. There are children (my dh was one of them) who are beaten within an inch of their life by their fathers and put right back into the home with little or no supervision by social services because there just aren't the resources. There are children who are kept home from school over and over and over again to babysit younger siblings or because no one can be bothered to take them (this is the case of my stepchildren). There are children who are given cigarettes and alcohol at the age of 10 and social services doesn't have the resources to deal with it (again my stepchildren). These are abused children with abusive parents. Not butterflywing's ex who doesn't put his dd's reins on or doesn't want to be told by his ex how he is supposed to play/interact with his own child. It just makes me furious when the term abusive is misused and diverts resources and attention away from the real abuse that is out there.

And I have seen in my own family (my cousin) how much resentment builds up in a child who is prevented from having a relationship with their father. And in my cousin's case, the father truly wanted nothing to do with him and he still blames his mother.

SofiaAmes, clearly you have very strong feelings about this and it was not my intention to offend you, but I hope you understand this is something I feel strongly about too.

I'm very much aware of what child abuse is and isn't, having suffered from it myself (No need to go into details about that here), and the situation your stepchildren are in sounds absolutely terrible. Thank god they have a caring stepmum like you to give them help and support; and of course a good father too.

I do think he is abusing butterflywings verbally to her DD and that is why I used the term. For example, to quote butterflywings from her first post "Calls me lazy 'cause I'm a SAHM in front of DD".

Also, if you look at buttery's posts you will see that she isn't actively trying to prevent a relationship and has in fact encouraged it.

I'm sorry but sometimes it is for the best that a child doesn't see a parent. That may not happen here and hopefully it won't, but that is for butteflywings and her XP to work out between them, which hopefully they will.

Finally butterflywings sorry for hijacking your thread and good luck to you. Hope I haven't put you off and keep posting here for support!

SofiaAmes, I have said all along that I never wanted XP to stop seeing DD. I simply asked for him to take more care of her when she's in his hands.
It was him who had a strop and decided that it wasn't worth making the effort for DD. What does that tell you?
And I certainly didn't tell him how he should play/interact with her.

As for the use of the term abuse: there are many forms of it. There is also emotional abuse and neglect. I am not saying that my DD is suffering from this, when there are children out there who are genuinely having a hard time, but Janos has a point. My XP was verbally abusive towards me in front of DD, in the name-calling and the general picking at everything I said and did. It got me really low, to the point where I just couldn't speak to him.
I am sorry to hear what your step-children have to put up with and I agree with Janos when she says that, thankfully they have you and your DH.

Janos, don't worry about the hijack. That's what MN is for - to discuss and debate
I know I'm probably going to get a thrashing for mentioning MySpace again but I use it to keep in touch with friends overseas as they have MySpace accounts (and it's cheaper than making 'phone calls!).
I checked XP's profile today and, sadly, he has removed all the pictures of DD that he had on there and, where it once said he's a 'proud parent', it now says nothing. I'm really saddened by that so I think I may e-mail him to try and reconcile the situation. If I do, I'll save the e-mail as evidence that I have been friendly and willing to make things right.
If he doesn't reply, then I will leave it - I don't want to push him into something he does not want.

Thank you everybody for your support so far. I will let you know how I get on
xx