Child arrangement order

[Livelaughlu]

Hi,

I was just wondering if anyone has been down the road of getting a child arrangement order and any advise anyone could give me?

Are you a RP or NRP? What are you looking for out of a CAO? Have you tried other (less costly) options first?

I think MNers after knowing more will be able to give you more relevant info/ advice.

I'm RP, have already been to mediation was a complete waste of time!

Tried to come to an agreement out of mediation, this wasn't stuck to. New agreement (amended) wasn't stuck to again or I get the line "I don't remember that" although it is in black and white.

A CAO is applied for by the NRP. The RP already has the children, so doesn't need an order. People are often under the impression that if they (the RP) apply for a CAO then the NRP can be forced to see the children. This is not true. A NRP cannot be forced to be a responsible engaged parent. It is a one way street legally against the RP.

So, the NRP makes the application to the court. This will cost £215 but can be reduced of exempt based on NRP income or benefits.
If this is the father, first he must have PR for the children. He will have this automatically if he is named on the birth certificate after a certain date, (can't remember exactly but I don't think relevant any more for kids going through custody fights now.. think about 2002 ) or was married to the mother at the time of the birth. If neither he has to apply to the court for this, which is fairly straightforward if the mother does not dispute it.

The NRP and RP will then be obliged to attend mediation . They must arrange this themselves it's about £200 . If there is abuse on either side, or one party refuses to engage, the mediator can sign it off as inappropriate and you proceed to court.

Prior to court (or in our case) on the day !! CAFCASS (children's court service) will have a chat with both parties to establish the concerns of both parties. They will let the judge know the issues and recommendations for the proceedings. The important part is that the court tries to do everything in the 'best interests of the children' and is not usually remotely concerned about parental point scoring. They want to know if the NRP is someone that is a valuable and effective parent in the child's life. NOT if they were a good husband or wife. They start from the position that the child has rights to a relationship to BOTH parents IF it's not detrimental to their welfare to do so.
The CAO can be awarded on the day if it's straightforward. Sometimes if there has been no contact for a while they can make an order gradually introducing the child to the parent again. If there are allegations (real or malicious) of a nature that could be detrimental to the welfare of the child - then the judge can order certain steps that the NRP must take - for example, allegations of drink or drug abuse - monthly hair follicle and liver function testing for three months before returning to the court for a decision. Meanwhile, supervised contact can be awarded either at a centre of by a court appointed family member.

Once awarded the CAO makes the RP legally bound to 'make the children available ' to the NRP for the period determined by the court. Failure to do so means enforcement action can be taken by the NRP . This can in extreme cases of refusal to comply with the order result in arrest, community service orders and imprisonment.

Having a court order won't make him stick to anything, failing to stick to it means you would need to go back to court if you want to do anything about it.

What's the issue? Failing to turn up?

Sorry, forgot to say this is the 'self representation' route. You can of course do all through a lawyer but will need 'evidence' of DV to claim legal aid. Otherwise v expensive. Self representation really not difficult.

He sees our dc on a regular basis although he has gone from two nights alternate weekends to one night.

It's more so to put in place where out children are being picked up and dropped off also that he has no contact with me unless it is regarding our dc. Because he has been dropping them off and then giving me abuse at the door in front of them, he will also contact me while I am out with my dp saying that I don't care for my children although they are in his care. He often brings our dc back early to cut time short with my dp as they have not met him yet. Which he is also trying to control because he feels he has every right to stop that happening.

I have tried on several occasions to talk and sort things out and it lasts a matter of weeks before it's thrown back in my face. He is very controlling and will stop anything he can for example me going abroad with them, he knows I can not go with out his consent.

I have been to see a solicitor and this is what she advised and before I go back to her I wanted to hear other people's experiences of COA.

By what the solicitor told me too was that this agreement gets written up signed by both parents then sent off to court and neither of us have to attend court. Unless NRP refuses any of the points in the agreement then he would have to then move it further to actually attend court. This is why I ask because all I have read is that we have to attend court regardless I'm so confused

You can't get a CAO . This can only be done by the NRP. You have two choices on the legal route.

1. Apply for a specific steps order to deal with the going abroad issue (you can go for 28 days with our his permission if you have (or get ) a residency order. (Check this out over on the legal board there are some really good family lawyers and Barristers there) and the pick up/returning early/bothering you issues. (£215 court cost if you do this yourself) OR

2 Stop contact and force him to apply for CAO if he wants to see them where all this can be spelt out in the order.

Yes, she is absolutely correct IF he engages with your solicitor, OR if he engages and agrees to your wishes at mediation. The route to the CAO (the long post) is if one party does not agree or engage with an agreement.

Thank you for your replies it's given me a much greater understanding

You're best not to have any sort of order in place as your ex won't be forced to stick to it (if he doesn't turn up there's no consequence for him).

On the other hand, you will have to comply and make your dc available, even if the day may clash with something you want to to with your dc. If you don't comply, you are in breach of the order and can face consequences.

I've been through it with my ex and it was a nightmare. He didn't want the dc, he just applied for the order to try and control me. He often didn't turn up on 'his days' and didn't give a toss that he knew I'd be at home waiting with the dc's for him to collect them.

These orders are so unfair. The family court (in my experience) are very biased towards the rights of the father (even if domestic violence has occurred) so you really are best not to go down the court route.

I would not bother wasting your time. Can he drop your child somewhere else and pick up somewhere else?

Iv wanted to take mine to court but it's a waste of time and money.

My sister had this with her ex he was horrible to her saying she was a bad mum etc but he couldn't be bothered with his kids.

He is doing this because he knows the kids have not met you fella so making it hard for you it won't last coz when your fella is around the kids he has nothing to control you with.

Keep strong it will get better

I know that he won't meet anywhere else then mine because he knows he can't get to me in a "mutual" place.

I put off going down this route for 2 years. He has always been controlling but has become very malicious and feels like the current agreement doesn't apply to him.

You say he's very controlling, well he'll be even more controlling of you with an order! He'll make sure you abide by it but I bet he won't, because HE won't have to but YOU will.

You don't need a child arrangements order to stop him being abusive (it won't stop him anyway). You should tell him that you'll be prepared to drop your dc off at a mutual friends or family members house for him to collect. He can't insist on coming to your door.

A handover place away from my house was one of the best things I got from going to court

Completely disagree re order. Having it spelt out in black and white does 2 things. It tells him when he can have them and it tells him when he can't.

It gives you the ability to plan with a great deal more certainty. So - for example the order says ; The mother shall make the children of the order available for contact with the father from 6pm Friday - 6 pm Sunday. The father shall pick them up from the mothers home and deliver them back to the mothers home).
That way you can plan your time to a certain extent. He will of course attempt to piss you around. Not turning up, not sticking to the order. Simply don't rise to it. If he tries to get them at any time outside the order tell him to piss off until he can behave like a responsible parent and put his children's welfare first.
You could even turn the tables on him a bit and request the judge puts , say a three month trial on the contact. Explain that it's not in the children's interests for an order whereby they sit around and wait for a parent who doesn't appear. Ask that he has to show consistency for three months and then review. If he doesn't then contact can be removed, altered or reduced. Whatever is considered best for the children.
Meanwhile your relationship with your new partner should have reached the stage where you can introduce him to the kids, thus removing his 'power' .

Thank you all for your replies and advise on this matter.

I have seen my solicitor and have written up an agreement that hopefully ex will agree with as she doesn't think there are strong enough matters to go to court. He sees the children, I'm not asking him to have them more but asking that he sticks to the current arrangement days/nights to see dc. I have requested that we meet in a mutual location and that there is no verbal communication between us to avoid him shouting abuse in front of dc and upsetting them more.

I am introducing my dp at the end of the month as I have given plenty of opportunity for ex to meet him and he has refused we have been together for 11 months by this time so think I have been fair and waited for a good length of time.

I went through the court process after a uselessness attempt at mediation. It was very expensive and extremely stressful but the CAO has been brilliant since. I also set up a separate email and a separate mobile for my ex, just did not respond on abuse not directly related to DC etc